What happened to Diplomacy?

[Sartan]

Please don't think I was suggesting that because admin pays for the site's upkeep that this somehow makes this forum more "ours" than anyone else's. That wasn't the intent.

I apologize then, that was a misinterpretation on my part.

It IS true that a lot of discussion happens behind the scenes. That's not because what happens is "secret". Rather, anyone who's been part of a committee for any length of time knows that the larger the committee, the longer it takes to get anything done, and the less effective the committee becomes.

I agree with that and the other reasons that were mentioned. If every little thing were put up to a vote, not much if anything would ever get accomplished.

One thing I'd personally like to see changed though, and Matt touched on it in his post in the Coordinator forum, would be greater transparency for what's going on "behind the scenes."

Just to give an example, Amal started off her post announcing Matt's new position by saying "As we all know, Deluthan stepped down from his role a few months ago." Maybe I'm just out of the loop or didn't pay attention, but I had no idea that happened.

This isn't some sort of indictment against Matt, since I can't think of a better person for that position, but I just think everyone should be kept in the know about major issues like that.

It's our community. It's our game. Its success (or failure) depends upon *US*. And that's an all-inclusive US.

Thumbs up to that sentiment.

[Jake]

... One thing I'd personally like to see changed though, and Matt touched on it in his post in the Coordinator forum, would be greater transparency for what's going on "behind the scenes." ...

No argument here. I agree completely that transparency is a good thing. We need to do a better job of keeping the community at large better informed and engaged.

[Wulfson]

It may not be an apt comparison, but it may put a different perspective on things...

Compare RoH to a soup kitchen (or any other volunteer organization that serves food to the community) . The patrons are the hungry filing through the line. The volunteers serve the soup. Some volunteers are in charge.

Now, the people filing through the line get no say on who is in charge. If a leadership position becomes open, it's filled from the volunteers.
The people in line, however, may be able to influence the menu that they're offered, and may become volunteers themselves.

[DUEL Psly FTA]

Just speaking from my time on the staff here. . . if G wants to step up to the mental equivalent of five years of lashings with a salty bullwhip and lemon juice washdowns, so be it. I love y'all to death, but I can't say as I'd ever want to step willingly into the bullseye like he's doing. The job's hard enough as it is, especially coupled with the fact that nobody here's getting paid to undergo this type of torture.

[Rix Favre]

Just speaking from my time on the staff here. . . if G wants to step up to the mental equivalent of five years of lashings with a salty bullwhip and lemon juice washdowns, so be it. I love y'all to death, but I can't say as I'd ever want to step willingly into the bullseye like he's doing. The job's hard enough as it is, especially coupled with the fact that nobody here's getting paid to undergo this type of torture.

I don't mean to call you out, but what exactly is the purpose of saying this? I've heard staff members say they could really use volunteers, but who would want to volunteer if all they hear is how thankless it is and how it's the equivalent of torture?

You certainly aren't encouraging people to sign up with an attitude like that, and as a member of the community, it makes me feel like I'm more of a pest to staff members than someone with a voice of my own.

[Harris]

I concur with the sentiments that everyone put forth. As one of the players that's been here 10+ years and seen a number of coordinators come and go it's never been put to a vote. I wouldn't want it to be in the first place. Running this place is about experience and quite frankly there isn't a very large pool of individuals with enough of it or enough time on their hands to do so properly. I've never doubted the mysterious powers that be behind the scenes that have chosen the coordinators before, so why should I now? Their track record is incredibly good in my opinion.

Quite frankly I agree with Napoleon's sentiment most strongly. No offense to Lallie but honestly your complaint holds very little weight in my mind because I have no idea who you are. I think it's a shame that G'nort gets the call to step up to the plate and he's immediately assaulted by doubters. Is there any wonder now why Billy stepped down? It's because of pointless criticisms like this. G'nort should be basking in our support as he takes the reins and we should be going out of our way to cooperate with him to make the transition as smooth as possible, not only for him but for the rest of the community as well.

[Artemus Kurgen]

You certainly aren't encouraging people to sign up with an attitude like that, and as a member of the community, it makes me feel like I'm more of a pest to staff members than someone with a voice of my own.

Why do you think some admins hide from we the masses? j/k

Being an admin is at times a thankless job much like calling. When I was actively calling I would get maybe 1 "Thanks for calling" during my 2-3 hour shift either in the room or in a PM.

However, in Pslyder's comment, he was accurate in describing the task G has agreed to take on. Last I checked, he will now be in charge of not only DoS standings, History Updating, and other tasks, but like any admin job there are times where he's going to have to play the bad guy and stop bullets in the air with a single post. Along with that, he's going to review any incidents involving harassment (OOC), flaming on the player boards (it's not just the moderators that take care of those), and several other unsavory jobs.

For most of these we don't give credit where it is due and take the fruits of labor this site/forum/game produces for granted. Pslyder was calling to attention that G has taken on a job most people do not willingly sign up for because of the real amount of effort it requires and we all need to see that to appreciate the sacrifices he's set himself up to make.

[DUEL Psly FTA]

I don't mean to call you out, but what exactly is the purpose of saying this? I've heard staff members say they could really use volunteers, but who would want to volunteer if all they hear is how thankless it is and how it's the equivalent of torture?

You certainly aren't encouraging people to sign up with an attitude like that, and as a member of the community, it makes me feel like I'm more of a pest to staff members than someone with a voice of my own.

During my time on the staff, which I'm not anymore, I was the target of more malicious slander at the hands of certain to-remain-nameless players than I ever want to have directed in my direction again. Ever. I don't wanna sound bitter or anything of that nature, but for whatever number of good and wonderful people, there always seems to be those few insert-expletive-here types that just jack it up. I have nothing but respect for Billy, but believe me, this job was no picnic for him.

Aside from that, since when does my opinion amount to a small hill of beans? Jeez, I mean, I haven't said word one on here for what, a year and a half? All I am is a ghost from the past here. Pay no attention to the semi-bitter old guy behind the curtain.

[Charlie Nausikaa]

During my time on the staff, which I'm not anymore, I was the target of more malicious slander at the hands of certain to-remain-nameless players than I ever want to have directed in my direction again. Ever. I don't wanna sound bitter or anything of that nature, but for whatever number of good and wonderful people, there always seems to be those few insert-expletive-here types that just jack it up. I have nothing but respect for Billy, but believe me, this job was no picnic for him.

Honestly, when I read your first post, I read it out loud to my husband and my reaction was "A-freaking-men."

I was not prepared for the unmerciful crap that I walked into when I agreed to be an admin. I felt emotionally pummeled every time I turned on my computer. I went on my honeymoon for a week and couldn't even get a break from the drama then. It's a 24/7 job. Nothing is private. Nobody seems to have your back.

Now this being said, being an admin and being a regular volunteer in this forum are two very different things. The admins protect the callers the best they can and, for the most part, calling is a joy. It gives me the chance to interact with characters that I wouldn't normally. It gives me a chance to goof around and have fun. Calling is an absolute blast most nights.

I'd encourage anyone to call or to write for the Dueling Zone or to add to the histories! I've done all of those things over the years and have always had a good time with it.

However, it takes a certain type of person to be an admin. I quickly realized that I am not that person. When people step into the admin role they should be fully aware of what they're doing. We shouldn't hide the dirty details or keep them in the dark about what it is like. It is what it is and there are people who can handle it and people that cannot.

[PrlUnicorn]

I don't speak up often around here. Maybe that's a good thing.

My kneejerk reaction to a post asking for an election for DoS Supervisor/Coordinator was "Who is this Lailie_Youngblood person and do they have any idea that there's actual WORK involved with the position and lots of it? How new are they that they don't know that it never has been an elected position and why it hasn't? Are they even qualified to be among nominees if there was such a thing as an election for who runs DoS? "

The people that have been involved in the RoH community's staff for any period of time know that, yes, it can be a lot of fun, but it is work, and sometimes not the proverbial Sunday school picnic.

I know that G has a lot of time and effort invested in the community. I know, just as anyone around more than six months knows, he IS the man around here. No offense to anyone else that works their tails off, I know it's not always easy or pleasant to be resolving player disputes. The simple fact is, people know and respect (if not like) G. They know he can be depended upon to get the job done.

To person behind Lailie, since you have now stepped up to the plate, I honestly suggest that you do some time as a caller, if you aren't already. This place isn't isn't run by IC actions only. There's a group of volunteers that officiate, keep records, update histories and so on. They keep the place running, without them there would be no DoS or RoH.

G, congratulations, man! For what it's worth, you have a vote of confidence from me.

[Rakeesh]

Vote? No vote? It would have been the same result. And I am not claiming that G'nort should not be the one to take over;

I am merely suggesting that in this community(RoH, not RDI), in particular, voting tends to go the way the people with the most experience in surviving in and manipulating the community want it to go.

As far as coming out to say that being an admin is thankless, painful work? Yes, any leadership position means dealing with a fair amount of crap. However, what is the point in saying this? To say, "Oh, trust me, you wouldn't want that job. It sucks"?

I would like to kindly suggest that perhaps the reason it puts a "target" onto the backs of some is that it is easy to misconstrue admins with personal loyalties ... as admins who make bias decisions.

I'll not lie. There have been admin decisions in ROH and in other venues that I have felt were bias, clique-ish, or even destructive. That does not mean that all admins have done this, or will do this - though it should say something to anyone who becomes an admin of this nature.

People don't like it when the game isn't fair. This can happen in many, many ways. The attitude of "we are old, you are new, deal with it" does not fly with many players, and I believe this to be part of the reason why we lose players like Quickvar, Farek, Gork, Cory, Anjolie. For many of the new players who do not clique with the admin-crowd, the game can be difficult to enjoy at times. When I started COM in TDL, it began as a team of nearly entirely new players. I attempted to introduce them to ROH as well, but pre-assumed association caused them to be cold shouldered. That is why they are, largely, missing from the ROH community.

So what am I doing in this mini-rant? Well, partly, I'm organizing my thoughts for something I mean to say later. Beyond that, I am trying to say that there are players here, volunteers here, who are chased away from having real influence on the game based on what may, or may not be OOC biases. I am trying to say that "what goes on behind the scenes" is not transparent, perhaps because there are things that would look poorly if made transparent. One thing that bothers me? I've heard tale that all private messages in ROH chat are logged and visible by some admins. If we are not entitled to our privacy here, then why is it that deals and decisions are allowed to be made "behind closed doors"? When this happens, and people become suspicious and questioning, why is it the norm to write them off as unappreciative?

No, there are things in this community that are unfair. To be an admin and deny that, is simply to not tell the truth. Ignoring and protecting the status quo is obviously hurting the community as well. Unless this sort of "crap" can be washed away, then I find it doubtful that questioning players who are "out of the loop" will simply suck it up and offer their thanks up.

Again, this does not have anything to do with Billy handing Alan the position, directly. However, I am attempting to show a point of view that is oftentimes immediately disregarded and attacked. It is this point of view that stemmed this thread, and whether or not you agree with it - there is relevance in the situation that has caused it to take many, many of the players here.

[Rakeesh]

Additionally, despite not normally or always agreeing with Artemus - his post in this thread is the one that I believe to be the most important, and least assuming. Jake brings up many good points as well. And Sartan, being the veteran player that he is, shows us that it is not only the newer blood that believe that things here may not always be upheld with the greatest of communal thought.

[Grayson]

For the record, and for no real reason or agenda whatsoever, I just want to say I miss Var, Farek, Gork (who I believe I saw around the rings recently), Cory and Quinn. And now Billy, too.

[G]

Sometimes, and far too often, I hear the word "clique" used as an excuse to try explaining away why people either feel left out, or chased away.

It's not always the case. Sometimes, people will leave because they cannot get away with certain types of negative behaviour. Sometimes they leave because they outgrow this place. Sometimes they leave because their lives offline are taking precedence. And sadly, sometimes they leave because they're feeling ignored.

Of certain reasons for certain people, only one side of a story is known. And to those that know the story, perhaps that group is somewhat cliquish. Generally, when people complain about cliques, it's one of two things. Either they're unhappy they're not in that clique, or their own clique isn't as well liked as the cliques they are complaining about.

I'm fully aware that every post I make from an OOC standpoint is now going to be scrutinized, eyeballed, analyzed, quoted, and rebutted, and possibly in the future attempted to be used against me. But in every case I come across, yes, *every* *case*, I am fair and objective. Usually I would be accused of being unfair or unjust because I didn't judge in someones favor. Well, not every case can have two winners.

Everyone here is in a "clique" even if they believe that they are not. Everyone here is perceived to be in a clique, even if they feel they're not in one. And probably some here will view another clique negatively because they are obviously a clique.

Myself, I'll admit I'm probably in a few "cliques." But I don't consider them cliques, I consider them play groups. I am fair to everyone in my play group. And when people come to me, I don't automatically turn them away unless something occurs which makes me view them negatively.

Sometimes, when things happen, that person has brought it on themselves. Sometimes not. Either way, I am Fair. If someone I am either friends with, or in a play group does something negatively, I will switch to "Official" mode and inform them that what they're doing won't fly. If someone I'm not friends with or in a play group with does something negatively, I will switch to "Official" mode and inform them that what they're doing won't fly.

I have to be fair, otherwise people will cry favoritism or whatever. I just hope that if I have to switch to "Official" mode and set someone straight that they understand that it's their behaviour that is unacceptable, and instead of complaining about how mean and unfair I am and telling people only their side of the story, that maybe they'll see that they may have brought it on themselves.

As to the logging of IMs, I am not a techincal wizard nor do I have that sort of access to confirm nor deny whether or not there are logs of IMs in the flash chat. I do know, however, that when I have a questionable IM, I will copy every part of that IM and save it myself in a notepad form in order to have proof to back myself up. AIM is the same way. I have AIM 6.0 and there's a nifty autologging feature that I readily employ to have every IM I ever have logged. I can go back and tell you what you said to me from whichever day so long it was after I DLed AIM 6.0. So, consider this fair warning, complaints, praise, discussion or anything else said to me on AIM, it's logged word for word, and unchanged. So, if someone is going to make their claim that they're keeping a log of an IM with me to post on whereever with the intent to prove I'm evil or something, know that I have everything as well and can prove otherwise and if need be, I can produce these conversations upon request.

I feel that at this point, I should address this little rant and say that this is not all a rebuttal to Rakeesh's post. In fact, I think I switch subjects a few times and went on a tangent about things. I think it should be clear where my stance is on certain subjects. I want it known that there is more than One side to a story. I want it known that every case that occurs will be dealt with objectively whether one, some, all or none are friends of mine.

Things I do not react well to include but are not limited to threats, harassment, outright lies, altered conversations, cheating, false accusations, spamming, hacking, broccoli, and poor me attitudes.

I encourage questioning, I encourage reporting negative behaviour. But where you expect *me* to be fair, I also, in return, expect *you* to be fair. Be cooperative. Be able to see more than one standpoint.

I think I've said enough on several subjects and am now leaving for the night. See you all tomorrow!

[G]

Again, this does not have anything to do with Billy handing Alan the position, directly. However, I am attempting to show a point of view that is oftentimes immediately disregarded and attacked. It is this point of view that stemmed this thread, and whether or not you agree with it - there is relevance in the situation that has caused it to take many, many of the players here.

I was wrong, I'm back and I do want to touch on this for two reasons.

The first reason is that Billy didn't hand me the position. It was offered to me and I accepted it after a bit of thought.

The second is that the last line confuses me just a little and I'm requesting clarification on it. "There is relevance in the situation that has caused it to take many, many of the players here."

Take many players where, or what? That's one thing that confuses me. And many of the players? Which ones? Like, how many are we talking here? Most of the ones I've spoken to, and there's a lot, have seemed pleased with me being placed as Supervisor. Even ones who I don't always get along with. If this line isn't about my being appointed as Supervisor of DoS, what is it about? I'm honestly not trying to sound picky or what have you, I'm just wanting clarification so I could better respond to it.

If it's in regard to my appointment, I'm not going to say that I've spoken to everyone in RoH. Nor do I think I could actually do that even if I'd like to. I do talk to a sizable portion and the majority of them appear to me to be pleased. I don't expect everyone to like that I am now supervisor. The very first post in this thread completely points to that fact. I don't even expect to please everyone. I'm not perfect. Noone who preceded me was perfect, noone who'd follow me is going to be perfect. There are going to be gray areas. Some things are open to interpretation and some things are going to be cut and dry.

"Many, many players" indicate a majority or at the very least a sizable amount of the forum, but so far, I've seen one complaint directly involving me, one complaint about a seeming attitude that was corrected and clarified by both parties involved, and this last one that brings up several points.

Also, just because something may seem or be a complaint does not mean we won't listen to it, or will disregard and attack it. Some people express themselves better than others. I, myself, and often found myself thinking I'm explaining myself well because it makes sense in my head, only to find out from someone that what I'm saying totally sounds like I'm trying to rip the person a new rear end. That's not the intention in about 99% of my posts and certainly not the case in this one.

Just a little clarification, if you would! Thanks!