Talon of Redwin change proposal.

[The Amazing Nova]

I'm of the opinion that adding anything that does not have a very large RP component would actually be detracting from the setting.

If the idea behind the unique rank is to get the less experienced duelers to participate, then the light should shine on RP participation. Otherwise we might as well start developing a flash version of the DoS that requires no RP, but just pits people against one another with button clicks for moves.

The problem with Option 1 is that it becomes a consideration of "if" rather than "when". If the Talon does not make warlord, it negates the improvements that we're seeking to make to set them apart from a Squire.

Unique ranks need to have their individuality displayed first and foremost. Otherwise, they aren't very unique.

[Amaltea]

I like the idea of allowing the Talon enter the Warlord Tournament. From an IC point of view, the Talon is invited to participate in the tournament. So far it's the one I like.

[Dalamar ArDaumon]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sympathetic to Lydia's point (if I'm reading correctly).

The implicit premise behind this thread is, essentially: "Because of the Squire rank, we need to do something to elevate the benefits of the Talon of Redwin."

The question we need to answer before we get into the specifics of said rules change is: Why?

My initial reaction to said question ("Why?") was - in my own head - "because it allows for the opportunity to create additional role-playing possibilities within the spectrum of the Duel of Swords."

Now, obviously, everybody is going to have a different answer to said question, and that's going to color their interpretation of what we should do. I'll also be the first person to admit that - because I wasn't around at the time - I'm not completely clear on the way the Talon came to be, why it's important, etc. However, I don't really see why it needs to be "more powerful" just because of the Squires (which is really another reason for my objection to the "varying fancies" idea - all power, no community value).

However, if we want to create additional RP involvement possibilities for the lower ranks (which, as I said before, is something that is apparently a big issue at the moment) then this is a good excuse to add a little quirk.

I do think that adding nothing to the rank is a viable alternative, and is something that should be considered. If the consensus is that a change is preferable, my general point of view is merely (as I believe Nova is saying) that the focus should be on a change that creates, or has the potential to create, additional RP. I'm of the mind that any of the various challenge-related suggestions create that dynamic, and (unlike Nova) I don't think the extra benefit needs to be a guarantee. Also, giving the Talon entry to the Warlord tournament would provide a "when" benefit with an additional "if" component, satisfying both sides, I hope.

Anyway.. enough rambling. However, I'm curious to hear from somebody who knows more than I do on the question "Why is it imperative that the Talon be more powerful than the Squire?"

-Mark

[Napoleon Bonarat]

The Talon was added as an incentive to the lower ranks; one of the first events of its kind for lower ranks. It gives newer people a chance to see what it's like to play in a tourney and get a prize. Until the Talon, the goodies were for Warlords/titled Warlords. It was also a nice way to pay tribute to Siera Redwin.

Adding the Squire does the same thing (gives newer folks a chance to play like the higher ranks do) but at the same time devalues the Talon a great deal. Before the Squire option, the Talon got a dagger and an extra fancy by fighting in a tourney with as many as 15 other people and usually not less than 6-9 other people.

But the Squire gets a weapon with a glow, a link to a barony (with an RP setting), a fancy increase, and a GM squire can also accumulate peer wins and challenge. And at worst, you'd only have to fight seven others but could be as few as three others, thus increasing your odds of winning, especially if the Baron invited people you were more likely to beat (if the Baron had a preference of you winning).

With this option, why would anyone want to participate in a Talon tourney, except as maybe a "second choice" alternative. So I don't think anyone is advocating the Talon be more powerful, but it should at least be on par or a reasonable RP/gaming alternative to anything new coming in.

I'm not really sure the Squire thing being something we need either. I think it's too easy to exploit in a way that excludes some people while further cementing in certain cliquish behaviors (or one person/one playing group dominating titles/high profile roles). I hope I'm proven wrong because I'd really just rather see newer people getting better opportunities to get immersed in a pretty fun environment.

[Jake]

The Talon was added as an incentive to the lower ranks; one of the first events of its kind for lower ranks. It gives newer people a chance to see what it's like to play in a tourney and get a prize. Until the Talon, the goodies were for Warlords/titled Warlords. It was also a nice way to pay tribute to Siera Redwin.

Adding the Squire does the same thing (gives newer folks a chance to play like the higher ranks do) but at the same time devalues the Talon a great deal. Before the Squire option, the Talon got a dagger and an extra fancy by fighting in a tourney with as many as 15 other people and usually not less than 6-9 other people.

But the Squire gets a weapon with a glow, a link to a barony (with an RP setting), a fancy increase, and a GM squire can also accumulate peer wins and challenge. And at worst, you'd only have to fight seven others but could be as few as three others, thus increasing your odds of winning, especially if the Baron invited people you were more likely to beat (if the Baron had a preference of you winning).

With this option, why would anyone want to participate in a Talon tourney, except as maybe a "second choice" alternative. So I don't think anyone is advocating the Talon be more powerful, but it should at least be on par or a reasonable RP/gaming alternative to anything new coming in.

I'm not really sure the Squire thing being something we need either. I think it's too easy to exploit in a way that excludes some people while further cementing in certain cliquish behaviors (or one person/one playing group dominating titles/high profile roles). I hope I'm proven wrong because I'd really just rather see newer people getting better opportunities to get immersed in a pretty fun environment.

Napoleon's post pretty much sums up my position.

I'll add that I'm not convinced the underlying idea behind the squires, which is in essence "have more tourneys", is something we specifically need. Are we lacking in tourneys? There's a WLT 4 times a year. There's a Talon tourney 4 times a year. Participation in those has not always been high. And because I think it contributes to the overall total, there are also a few DoF tournies, and a few more DoM tourneys. We have lots of regular tourneys. We also have the occasional tourneys that come about as a result of a titled rank being vacant.

I do like the special event tourneys. The DoS Madness tourney has been a great success. Random's Grandmaster tourney last summer I thought was also quite interesting.

Truth, I don't have a problem with adding the Squire rank. I'd rather see it more like the DoF Mentor/Mentee concept. Just pick someone. Or hold a tourney if you really want to (like an audition), but don't make that a requirement. Maybe this Baron picks someone at random. Maybe that one holds a tourney. Maybe another comes in, watches the newbies for a few weeks and then picks one. And as far as I am concerned they could stay the Baron's squire until the Baron lost their title, or the Squire earns the rank of Warlord and thereby outgrows the squire role.

To go that route however I'd want to do away the with fancies (or do it like DoF and only when the Baron is around) and/or the peer win thing. As Napoleon mentioned, I'd just as soon not see the Talon devalued.

[Dalamar ArDaumon]

(So I wrote this part after the fact when I realized my post became absurdly long. My bad. It's basically a rant about leaving the rules/game alone and trying to be better community members. If that's not your bag, you should probably save the time reading this incoherent jumble).

Granted it's kind of a little off topic, but if we're revisiting the Squire notion here, I'm with Jake.

Let's do this the easy way... don't make the Squire such a big deal (or flat out don't make it at all) and leave the Talon alone (though I do kind of still like the idea of the Talon getting you an "auto entry" to the next Warlord Tourney). Let Barons and/or Warlords pair up with lower ranks (preferably below GM?) and work it like the DoF mentor program, if anything.

I'm involved in the DoF mentor program, and the person I'm paired with I've known for a whopping 2 weeks or less. I've had a lot of fun playing with them and I want to contribute to the community and have a good time. From the list I've seen, it doesn't seem apparent to me that anybody else is doing anything different (read: no cliques manipulating the rule for a sweet extra whole fancy). No multi-character cons or anything. Just people who want to have a good time and participate in something fun that hurts nobody and provides additional RP.

Let's give it a whirl here too. Like Jake said... let the Baron decide how they want to handle it. No mentee, hold a tourney, pick the largest adam's apple, who cares. If a new system with RP value and some - but minimal - game value can be positively received in DoF, then why not here? I know DoS has always been a larger and thus more divided community than DoF but I'm foolishly optimistic that we're all mature enough to make things work without throwing fancies and ranks around like water. If the mentor program can work there, it can work here too, and it's a good, fantastically simple concept. And you know what? If somebody uses it as an excuse to collusively benefit their own little peer group or 5th alternate character with a whopping extra fancy, there really isn't anything you can do to make them fun to play with, so there's no sense worrying about it and we should throw them in the pit of despair.

Fancies, peer wins, challenges, etc have been earned by people over time the hard way. I'm not particularly in favor of adding all kinds of new ranks to make it easier. Keep the Squire, the title, the RP possibilities if you want, just don't make it a huge game change. I was new once and worked my way into the fold. So was Nova. And Jake. And Kal. And everybody. Many of us "walked" in the Arena once with nobody to talk to, and we made it work. Why are things magically different now? I hate to harp on this, but it's a team effort. If we all pitch in and make it an inviting atmosphere, then we don't need to create all these extra ranks and complicated rules to help people have a good time and want to stay involved.

I said it once before, but I think it merits mentioning again (with the benefit of a little outsider perspective, I swear it's something we all need to think about - new and old)... I was nurtured by some higher ranking and more experienced people when I started dueling... I suspect almost everybody was. I was nobody, but I handled myself as best I could and the regulars were open to helping and playing with a new person. I think we all owe it to ourselves and to the game to get off our high horses and integrate the next generation. And I think the next generation needs to take some responsibility and work their way in with the established characters and up the ranks like us old peeps did if they want to be involved. Give other characters and players a chance. Introduce yourself. Spend 5 minutes or 5 seconds playing with somebody new. Duel a Commoner if you're a Warlord or a Warlord if you're a Commoner. Earn respect by slashing Gnort.

Making more ranks, easier fancies and all that jazz only dilutes the value of the current titles. Plenty of people through the years have been highly integrated in the community without extra fancies or even rank. Jonalyn was heavily involved in the community, the RP and the politics for years and was always a commoner. Jesus... Tass was a commoner for roughly 24 years (no guarantee on accuracy of said estimation ). Insert roughly 80 other examples.

I like the game the way it is. It's elegant (unlike my disjointed, tedious post), for lack of a better word . Leave it alone and invest the extra energy in your RP. All of the new people I've met have been pretty cool. Maybe we really can all just get along if we actually give it a shot. We are the world. Any other goodie-goodie Bono hippie hand-holding phrase of your choice.

-Mark

[Kalamere]

Dal and Jake's posts aside (both of which I agree with.. not being a fan of the squire concept in its current state), if the Squires stays as is I can understand the desire to buff the Talon a little bit. In theory, the Talon should be a more desirable title than Squire. This, at least, seems to be the assumption. I'll buy into that.

What I'm not entirely clear on though, is any desire to focus on an RP buff to the Talon. If winning the Talon of Redwin isn't enough of an RP gadget by itself, then I'd suggest you're simply not trying. Where we fall short, I feel, is in the game mechanic aspect. In it's current state, the Squire rank carries a superior game mechanic incentive.

[G]

Have more Tourneys.

That's not what I'm going for. While everyone seems to love tourneys(which is fine) it has been brought up that the squire rank appears to just be about more Tourneys. (Excluding DoM and DoF ones because they're different sports.)

There's more than enough to keep Warlords and above active and entertained. What I'm going for with a squire rank is to have those who are not Warlords or higher have something enjoyable and interesting to do as well. Warlords and Barons have challenges, and the WLT. Most of DoF is geared towards upper ranks. Well, I'm looking at options to have lower ranks interested as well. That's what the purpose of the Squire rank is.

Let Barons and/or Warlords pair up with lower ranks (preferably below GM?) and work it like the DoF mentor program, if anything.

I'll say flat out that the Squire isn't going to be like the DoF Mentor/Mentee program. The DoF Mentor program is a really good plan, but I'm not just going to carbon copy it for DoS. If a Baron can just up and pick someone at a whim, well, here you'll see all the cries of favoritism and cliques again. Not going to happen. There's also no enthusiasm or anticipation if someone is simply picked, it's just not that fun. There's also a great chance that people will be left out. If you want to open it to all Warlords to take someone under their wing, then it's just not that special.

I think the Clique issue is dealt with by limiting the amount of duelists a Baron can choose for their tournament. I think with the way the Squire is designed, it will be very interesting and enjoyable for every rank(with exception to the Overlord), from a game issue to an RP issue.

If the issue with trying a "mentor/mentee" program in swords is about just taking someone under your wing, well, it's been done in the past and there's nothing stopping it now. I even encourage that. If I had the time at the moment, I'd probably be doing my best to tutor at least 5 people who're below the rank of Master @ Arms. Also, I would more than welcome back the idea of Houses. Please bring *those* back! I tried and there just wasn't enough interest.

Squire will make the game more entertaining for lower ranks. It benefits RP as well. There's plenty of scenarios that can come from such a thing in RP whether live setting or posting, or what have you.

The Talon needs to be more desirable than Squire

I understand this sentiment and I agree with it after hearing the arguments. I can do some adjusting to the Squire rank, but I don't think there's much left to it that makes it special to just start taking more away.

I can try to upgrade the Talon of Redwin. So far I'm meeting with some resistance. I'd like to hear more perennial lower ranks to see what their thoughts are, thus far they've mostly been quiet except for one or two.

I've discussed the initial change of the Talon in my proposal to the creator of the tournament, and she seemed enthusiastic about it when she said "Go for it!"

As it stands, after Squire is introduced I'm going to have to hold on to making any Talon changes to see how affected it is by the squire rank. For the Talon tourney, there's been an average of 11.375 participants. Generally between the numbers of 10-12. 10 being the most consistent number of participants, with 18 being the most, 7 being the fewest. If the numbers change drastically with less participants, then I'll change the Talon ability and even revisit the Squire rank.

If winning the Talon of Redwin isn't enough of an RP gadget by itself, then I'd suggest you're simply not trying.

Who isn't trying? The runners of the tournament, or the duelists who win it? If you mean those who win it, I certainly can agree. Of the 16 duelists(I'll exclude the latest one because lately, I haven't been too present to see if they're using it as an RP platform) I don't believe I have seen *anyone* use it as an RP gadget with exception to the first winner. In fact, most of the time a duelist wins the Talon, they become relatively inactive in swords. Much like it used to be with Warlord tourneys. Show up to win the tourney and then disappear. This can happen for numerous reasons which I'm not going to get in to. But the fact is, it happens. When someone wins the Talon, the responsibility to play in to it is the player who wins it.

Now, the question begs. All you get with the Talon is an icon in your profile, a fancy, and a ceremonial dagger(Which is good enough to use in a fight.) I can think of a few ways to use that as an RP platform, but not many. Is that enough? What else can you do?

It's also the same thing with the Baronial ranks. There's been a few who've made posts or RPed things with their Baronial Manors, but the majority don't do more than mention it as a passing item of interest in the room. Fewer still make posts about their manors.(I am so guilty of this it's not funny, though I've done it in the past.) Every time someone makes a post in direct regards to their Manor, I am thrilled. It's just too few.

I know I've targeted several specific quotes. I'm honestly not trying to argue anyone specifically, I'm genuinely trying to address the concerns brought up.

All in all, what my target is for the squire rank is, is to let there be something more for lower ranks to look forward to. And to address the concern that the Squire overshadows the Talon, then to address that issue satisfactorily.

I honestly feel that one tournament for lower ranks really isn't enough. And I'm looking across the board to make those beneath Warlord have more fun with their time at those ranks.

(This has been edited a lot because I really suck at writing certain things. Anyone want to be a proofreader or secretary or something? I don't pay at all!)

[Kalamere]

I have no one specific in mind when I say "you're not trying". I wouldn't even go so far as to say that there is anyone who has won the Talon and "not tried". This wasn't meant as an accusation of any form. My only point is that in itself winning the Talon allows for certain RP avenues that are not open to anyone who has not won it. If the working theory is that Talon must outweigh Squire, my very simple point is that I feel the "weight" is more needed in the game mechanic area and not so much in the RP area.

[Artemus Kurgen]

The balance of Gamers and Role Players competing in tournaments will always be part of this game. If what I'm seeing is correct, then the Squire ranks and corresponding tourneys opens it up to the Role Players more so than Gamers. To clarify, if need be, on what Gamers are; is an individual who competes in DoS/F/M simply for the duels. The RP is an unimportant factor to them.

However, to get back on topic, the issue of the Talon being devalued will happen with any idea regarding tournaments and perks going to lower ranks. For the longest time the perks all ranks below warlord looked forward to was the OL Grant, and the Talon. Now a third option is being introduced that is a combination of them both.

Why not just take the ideas behind the Squire and add them to the Talon and be done with it?

The winner of the Talon gets an auto-entry into the WLT, sort of like another test to their skill, and if they're a GM allow them to align with a Baron as their personal Squire. If the Talon chooses to squire his/her self, then they are allowed to gain PWs, but only enough to challenge a Baron of their choice.

What you have here, is a Talon with their 1 extra fancy, choosing a Baron to be Squire to; and depending on the Baron the Taloned Squire gets one of the weapons outlined earlier and the RP bonuses of that weapon. The Fancy comes from the Talon, the RP boon from the Baronial weapon.

Another aspect this opens up is that if he or she wants to remain a Squire with all the perks, they have to re-enter the Talon when it comes back around. If the Squire doesn't win, they have the following WLT to prove themselves their Patron Baron or be cast out and lose all the perks.

But I digress.

The other possibility that is inherent is, say the Talon MAKES IT TO GM while following the tourney; then they can go to the Baron they want and petition to be made Squire. From there the Baron in question can say yes, or put a challenge to them. Like a personal test of worthiness.

At least to my mind, combining the two ideas opens up more roads without devaluing anything. It only increases the options along with Game Mechanics, RP, and increased cooperation between higher and lower ranks.

[Tormay Eludes]

I think I wasn't very clear on what I meant in my suggestion earlier. I did suggest a lower number of peer wins to gain a challenge, but I didn't mean for it to be possible for any lower rank to gain these peer wins.

It would be a bit like the first option, but not getting rid of the peer wins altogether.

Then again, seeing that a lot of benefits already go to the higher ranks, I find myself liking the second option more anyway.

I especially like the idea of tying the two tournaments together. That would be a nice touch.

I went back to make sure I read everything, and saw the arguments that Jake, Dalamar, and G put up.

I don't think having a rank with extra fancies is the way to make it more appealing than the Squire. It needs to have HEAVY RP benefits to go with it. Every change that goes with it should have something to do with RP.

The benefits from wining the Talon should directly result from winning the Talon.

It is one thing to have a commoner to defeat a Warlord. (Impressive, but it gets shrugged off) If the Talon does it that rank, it should get a bit more notice. The Talon already gained some notice for winning that title, he is already going to be looked at more than any of the lower ranks.

That is why a change to how the peer wins or ability to challenge or something along those lines makes perfect sense for the Talon. It doesn't have to be a big change, just a little one.

If I were a Warlord or Baron (I will be someday, you just wait! ) I would pay more attention to someone who had proved himself already. I would probably pay more attention to a Swordsman Talon than a M@A without the title. Anyone who gains a title would gain respect quicker, it is natural for it to happen that way.

It should be reflected somehow in the peer win or challenge system.

That, and please put the Talon into the Warlord tournament. You really can't pass a RP change like that to boost it in comparison to the Squire.

[Jake]

Last comment.

The reason I like Kal's suggestion better (giving the Talon a free challenge if they can make Warlord) better than entry into the WLT is because the latter offers no incentive to duel.

I can win the Talon tourney, then sit out the next couple of months, and then take advantage of my free entrance into the WLT. No real incentive to come in and duel. We'll continue to see inactive duelers win the Talon and disappear again.

On the other hand, if the prize is a potential challenge, the Talon-holder has a real incentive to come in and duel/play in order to make Warlord so that they can take advantage of that challenge (before they lose their chance when the next Talon tourney rolls around).

I think we've got plenty of tourneys. I'd rather see more challenges.

[Tormay Eludes]

Maybe if it were a requirement that the Talon be active to be invited to the WLT?

I wouldn't like to see the Talon go to an inactive character either. I think that any title should stay active, by making it a requirement to get into the tournament, maybe we would see less inactive characters holding the Talon.

Although that is a good point with the challenge being given only if they make it to Warlord while holding the Talon. I didn't realize that it was such a problem with people would use an alternate character to do that.

While I would love to see it where a Talon got into the WLT, you are probably right about it being better for the game if they got the challenge that way. It would make it more likely to have them participate in between.

[Tormay Eludes]

I thought I should someone should say this:

Thanks G for all the work you are putting into this!

As a lower ranking player, and a somewhat newer player, I would love to have more fun with the lower ranks while I am there. I don't plan on being in the low ranks forever, but I would like to have fun while I am here.

Sure, I could gain Warlord in one cycle, but I doubt I will. I do plan on having losses that slow me down. Having these titles and tournaments specifically aimed for the lower ranks will make it easier to deal with being a low rank.

Not that it isn't fun already, but you higher ranking types have so much more you can do. You already have built up your characters reputations and earned the respect of everyone else. I don't want an easy way to do it, but I don't know where to start really. Having the Talon (and hopefully the squire) will give me an idea of what to do. It will certainly give even newer players who have NO experience in this kind of roleplaying a decent foundation.

So again, thank you for working so hard on this!

[G]

I'm fine with giving the Talon a free Baron shot should they make Warlord while they are the Talon.

This wasn't meant as an accusation of any form.

Cool deal. Probably just me reading it wrong, I wasn't completely sure. Thanks for clearing that up.

If the working theory is that Talon must outweigh Squire, my very simple point is that I feel the "weight" is more needed in the game mechanic area and not so much in the RP area.

I agree, which is why my initial idea was to make it so that the Talon gets as many fancies as their opponent, plus one. (Max 5, min 1). I also agree that there should be some RP element. So, my question is, how about both? Equal fancies and Baronial shot once making Warlord as Talon. That sound like a decent compromise?

Why not just take the ideas behind the Squire and add them to the Talon and be done with it?

Because they should remain two different titles, and I want to keep them that way.

Edit: I said earlier that I talked to the creator of the Talon and was corrected that there were a few more involved than just one person. Sorry about that. And there's still lots of thanks to go around to those who were involved.