White Flag

[Scorched Druid]

Icer is not comfortable with Dueling. She's told me this a few times. She doesn't mind watching though IC Crowds bother the dragon and she retreats to her Lair.

Oh. Well. I was just using her as the first example to pop into my mind. lol! Thanks. You should tell her I think it would be awesome to see a dragon dueling.

You don't watch Tass duel?

[Kalamere]

Again agreeing with Harris.. You have to look at "fairness" from more than one angle. Sure, it might be "fair" from one point of view to give each sport an equal share of nights. On the other hand, it may not be fair to the player base. If there are drastically more players interested in swords (which there are) then wouldn't we want to provide those people with more nights to play? The idea being to keep folks entertained and playing here, yes?

Look at the fight night stats. I've only looked at the last month's or so and don't have them currently infront of me, but, my recollection is that there are more swords duels than there are fists and magic combined (which were roughly equal ).

I'll agree that "fair" dictates each sport should probably have a night to themselves.. so I like that it's being looked at for Magic. I'd prefer not to see the most popular of the games start losing nights though.

And G.. I actually kinda like the Fight Nights =) and, as far as I can tell, the multi-sport nature doesn't keep swords folks from coming out. But, I can see your point.

[Wyheree]

What has hurt Tuesdays, and DoF in general in my opinion, is inconsistencies in staffing. When I started calling Tuesdays, the shift was dead - but then, almost every shift at that time was dead. I stuck with it because people don't pop in to rp without a caller in the room. Some nights are just rp nights. Some nights would be a couple duels. Some nights would be just me. That's the way it was.

I took a leave from my Tuesday shift because of pressures from the recital my daughters were in last year, and it was after that, that the shift started becoming spottily staffed for whatever reason. Tass was a big huge help for the Tour, but then he needed to take a well-deserved break, and again the shift languished. I personally prefer calling on the RoH side - the tool makes it possible for me to call more than two at a time, which is all I can manage on the RDI side in IM's. But, I will call where I am needed most and right now, it is Mondays that need the attention more, as that is the main night for DoF.

I still don't see why Magic can't start a Monday shift again - staff it, see who comes to play. The duels will come in time. It took the Sunday Fight Night months to recover from the severe duel drought there was back in 2008/2009. In my old reports, I was happy to get four duels a SHIFT. Now, 10-12 duels a shift is more the norm. As for it not being fun to sit in an empty room, well - it's better to sit there for a shift and have no one, than to not be there at all and find out people wanted to play and didn't because there wasn't a caller present (like Kalamere last week with DoF on Tuesday).

EDIT TO ADD: Last night's Fight Night shift breaks down like this: 11 duels total, 6 DoS, 3 DoM, 2 DoF. The DoF duels were early in the shift, the DoM duels were late in the shift. The shift was from 9pm-12:30am, with the Que closing about 12:15 or so.

[Delahada]

You don't watch Tass duel?

Tass doesn't duel in full dragon form, as far as I'm aware. Whenever I see him he's always human.

[Harris]

I'm straying from the issue at hand here, which is giving DoM a solo night. If there's one aspect that should be equal between the sports it's respect. There used to be a time in this community where every sport's major tournament was held in equal regard. When the AMT was held, other dueling would close down for it. Same for the DQ. Same for the WLT. DoM having a solo day in my mind is another manner of giving the sports equal respect. I have the feeling that the mentality is that since players don't have a personal stake in DoM that they don't care what happens over in DoM, to the point where they'd shrug their shoulders and muse, "Oh well" if DoM ceased to exist. I think that's a shoddy mentality to have and speaks volumes of where the community aspect has gone. I'm a DoFer, but I have no problem going to bat for DoM. I'd do the same for any sport in this situation, because we're all part of the same community here.

[Jake]

And G.. I actually kinda like the Fight Nights =) and, as far as I can tell, the multi-sport nature doesn't keep swords folks from coming out.

I like the Fight Nights as well. I like being able to get my DoF on when I wander in on a Friday night.

(Historical note: DoF originally ran on Friday and Saturday nights.)

Sometimes my week is just too busy to come in on a Tuesday or Wednesday. I did try to make last Tuesday night, only to discover there was no one around.

[Scorched Druid]

I'm straying from the issue at hand here, which is giving DoM a solo night. If there's one aspect that should be equal between the sports it's respect. There used to be a time in this community where every sport's major tournament was held in equal regard. When the AMT was held, other dueling would close down for it. Same for the DQ. Same for the WLT. DoM having a solo day in my mind is another manner of giving the sports equal respect. I have the feeling that the mentality is that since players don't have a personal stake in DoM that they don't care what happens over in DoM, to the point where they'd shrug their shoulders and muse, "Oh well" if DoM ceased to exist. I think that's a shoddy mentality to have and speaks volumes of where the community aspect has gone. I'm a DoFer, but I have no problem going to bat for DoM. I'd do the same for any sport in this situation, because we're all part of the same community here.

All of this. I agree. More to the point, we are a COMMUNITY. Yes our players and characters prefer one or more sports to another, but we the players should support all of them. Franco brought up ( and I'm paraphrasing) that she could basicly care less about DoM, her choice, but that doesn't help the discussion at all.

Like Harris said at one point if ANY sport were having a special event from Tournaments to Challenges, the other two would close up shop for the night. This showed inter-sport cooperation and respect. Harris wants to see that come back, each sport getting mutual respect. DoM has the smallest pool of players therefore tends to get shafted, though there are some other reasons why many stay away but I'm not going to voice those. I like my job.

[BardGallant]

Okay. Equality of time slots we can shove aside. In all honesty, if DoF isn't getting the participation levels it used to on Tuesday nights, then it only seems reasonable to close that night down and give it up to DoM.

I don't think any of the sports should give up their RDI nights. It seems to me that participation levels are increased when those sports are held on RDI. Though it does suck for us callers, because I agree with Wyh. It's much, much easier to do my job using the integrated calling tool that exists on RoH. However, this brings me to another point that I think Druid missed.

7. The DoM matrix is too confusing for me.

I have no "answer" for this problem, but I do believe it exists.

Of all the matrices present, DoM is, in my opinion, the most confusing. Both DoS and DoF allow for participants to make use of all the available moves, no matter what they are. The only difference being that as a character rises in rank, the player is given access to the option of using fancies (and feints). That requires some further education, but not from a beginners level.

Newcomers to DoM may not be aware of the rules regarding which spells are available to their characters and which ones are not. I've discussed this complication with Neo, and though I see it as existing I cannot come up with a reasonable resolution on my own. So I'm going to mention it here and see what you others might think.

I have seen some new duelists get away with using higher level/ranked spells. Sometimes I'm sure that the room is busy, especially on Fight Nights, and the caller may not notice the mistake, so it goes through. Such as an unranked duelist using Reflect when he should not be able to do so until his WoL increases. Because of the integrated calling tool and callers trying to keep the duels going swiftly and smoothly, often I think this is overlooked. We often press that resolve button without really thinking, trusting the players to know the rules enough not to choose a spell they shouldn't have access to.

This makes DoM both difficult to play and difficult to officiate. The callers have to either trust the participants to know their own limits, or know the participants (and the rankings) well enough to keep an eye on that sort of thing. And often I don't think the callers are always aware of when a character is new to the game or not. I know I'm not 100% certain of who in which sport is which rank and allowed however many fancies or feints at all times. DoM is a whole 'nother ballpark, and in many ways a completely different game in concept.

DoS and DoF are just easier, because they don't require so much complication in thought and awareness. All of the listed moves in the integrated calling tool are available to all participants. Whereas in DoM you have to know which ones, as a duelist, you're allowed to use, and which ones you aren't. This may also contribute to the other argument about DoM duels taking longer than the other two sports on average to complete. There are more variables on the table that have to be accounted for at all times.

[Marc Franco]

Franco brought up ( and I'm paraphrasing) that she could basicly care less about DoM, her choice, but that doesn't help the discussion at all.

You incorrectly paraphrased one small part of what I said in response to Harris saying that it's a tragedy that we all don't want to play DoM. I don't want to play. That doesn't mean I want to see it fail.

If you read past the first sentence you would see that the bulk of my statement was agreeing that DoM should get a night to themselves. That was my contribution to the discussion. I'm sorry if you don't think it's helpful but I have as much a right as anybody to chime in. You would think that if you're really interested in having a solo DoM night, you would encourage people like me who aren't a DoM die-hard but believe it should have it's own night rather than saying that I am not "helping the discussion at all".

[Scorched Druid]

Franco brought up ( and I'm paraphrasing) that she could basicly care less about DoM, her choice, but that doesn't help the discussion at all.

You incorrectly paraphrased one small part of what I said in response to Harris saying that it's a tragedy that we all don't want to play DoM. I don't want to play. That doesn't mean I want to see it fail.

If you read past the first sentence you would see that the bulk of my statement was agreeing that DoM should get a night to themselves. That was my contribution to the discussion. I'm sorry if you don't think it's helpful but I have as much a right as anybody to chime in. You would think that if you're really interested in having a solo DoM night, you would encourage people like me who aren't a DoM die-hard but believe it should have it's own night rather than saying that I am not "helping the discussion at all".

Oh no, I read the whole thing, however I saw this and I'll admit it irked me...

I do want to add, though, that I think the DoM die hards who think a solo night is going to help the game are fooling themselves.

It's good to know that hoping for the best is to fool one's self.

[Marc Franco]

I do want to add, though, that I think the DoM die hards who think a solo night is going to help the game are fooling themselves.

It's good to know that hoping for the best is to fool one's self.

Then discuss the issue rather than dismissing my opinion as being unhelpful when it was, in fact, helpful to your position. I would have had no problem expounding on my opinion had you simply asked.

I think that everybody that plays DoM already does. It isn't going to encourage people like me to play. You can't force people into dueling. Eliminating everybody's options isn't going to make them do what you want them to do. There's maybe four or five people in the Outback on a Tuesday night. I know the characters that usually show up. Typically that player already has a character in the Island or isn't interested in DoM.

That's my opinion. I'm allowed to have it. It comes from over a decade of calling and watching the numbers. You're allowed to disagree.

That being said, fair is fair. Every other venue has a night dedicated to it so DoM should have one as well.

Considering that we agree on the fundamental point, I don't know why you would care that I don't think that DoM is going to have a sudden rush of new duelers. You call it hoping for the best. I hope it works out for you guys but my experience says that it's not going to make a huge difference. Like I said, though, fair is fair. The rest have it so DoM should too. If it goes through, time will tell which one of us is correct.

[Neo Eternity]

I'm straying from the issue at hand here, which is giving DoM a solo night. If there's one aspect that should be equal between the sports it's respect. There used to be a time in this community where every sport's major tournament was held in equal regard. When the AMT was held, other dueling would close down for it. Same for the DQ. Same for the WLT. DoM having a solo day in my mind is another manner of giving the sports equal respect. I have the feeling that the mentality is that since players don't have a personal stake in DoM that they don't care what happens over in DoM, to the point where they'd shrug their shoulders and muse, "Oh well" if DoM ceased to exist. I think that's a shoddy mentality to have and speaks volumes of where the community aspect has gone. I'm a DoFer, but I have no problem going to bat for DoM. I'd do the same for any sport in this situation, because we're all part of the same community here.

This. I've been trying to fight that shoddy mentality for a very long time. It often feels like a sisyphean task, but I do feel like progress has been made.

And indeed, Franco's player has the right to not play DoM. Any number of people can opt-out of any of the three sports they want to. No one should be forced to go play any sport that they don't want to, to play in any venue they don't want to. Supporting a sport and actively participating in it are exclusive.

I do want to add, though, that I think the DoM die hards who think a solo night is going to help the game are fooling themselves.

That statement irked me, but only because it's a more harshly-worded way of saying what I already said on page three. We're very unlikely going to gain DoF players in DoM by canceling the DoF shift. But there may be one, maybe two players. Both of which are greater than zero. And if they want to play, our arms are open.

Also, one more thing has been bothering me.

This thread directly affects DoF, and has reached four pages already. Where are Matt and Kheldar?

[Marc Franco]

I do want to add, though, that I think the DoM die hards who think a solo night is going to help the game are fooling themselves.

That statement irked me, but only because it's a more harshly-worded way of saying what I already said on page three. We're very unlikely going to gain DoF players in DoM by canceling the DoF shift. But there may be one, maybe two players. Both of which are greater than zero. And if they want to play, our arms are open.

And, to be perfectly honest, the defensiveness to my opinion and dismissing my right to have a say (particularly considering that I was supporting the idea) is the reason why I will not be one of those players. There was a day that I did enjoy playing on Twilight Island. This attitude is what continues to chase me away.

[Neo Eternity]

I still don't see why Magic can't start a Monday shift again - staff it, see who comes to play. The duels will come in time. It took the Sunday Fight Night months to recover from the severe duel drought there was back in 2008/2009.

We already tried it and it didn't work out. Not nearly enough participation. Not to mention that we'd be hard pressed to find callers to fill that night. DoM is worse off for callers than DoF is, but it's not actually that much of a problem because we've only one night to fill, and I'm almost always around to fill in shifts myself if necessary. And even without the participation and staffing problems, this idea is directly contradictory to what we're trying to achieve here. All it really does is take away a solo night from DoF.

[Scorched Druid]

Inviting the RDI folks here and us going there didn't change a whole lot at first either, nothing happens over night. The dueling drought hurt all the sports, that's agreed, but it hurt DoM the most, the other sports have benefited more from the integration. DoM on mondays was dead for months, no duels happening, so it was closed down. When numbers started to climb, the shift opened back up, there was dueling for a while but the numbers slumped to near non-existent again. The Tour came around and participation in all the sports spiked, however DoM on Mondays remained closed and any duels taken place on that day for DoM didn't count on the standings. That HURT the sport more than any decision that has been made.

As it stands right now, there is no way DoM Mondays will be coming back any time soon because there isn't enough participation. And DoM soloing Tuesday night would require a test run to see if anything reallly changes, as it stands now though, it takes 2 DoM shifts back to back to get over ten duels. I'd suggest the dead Mondays be delegating to hosting special events such as the AMT and the ART.