My own DoM proposal.

[Harris]

How about going the other way?

In other words, not declaring spells at all, keeping your opponent guessing until you use your chosen spell(s)?

Every duel is tantamount to a guessing game, then. How can you hope to craft any sort of strategy if you don't even know what moves your opponent has to use against you? You'd be dueling partially blind. A decent concept for a special tournament or something, but for regular dueling? No thanks.

[Neo Eternity]

Every duel is tantamount to a guessing game, then. How can you hope to craft any sort of strategy if you don't even know what moves your opponent has to use against you? You'd be dueling partially blind. A decent concept for a special tournament or something, but for regular dueling? No thanks.

That's what I figured too, but I wanted to throw it out there for completeness' sake.

I find Jake's idea intriguing, but I was considering this idea separately from the discussions in the other thread. There's no reason we can't have this in addition to whatever we decide on in the other thread. At least not one I can think of off the top of my head.

[Scorched Druid]

I think it's an interesting idea...but it doesn't seem to do anything for the apprentice (which was one of the discussion points in the other thread).

So, in the spirit of discussion, how about a variant?

Keep the basic structure as is. Remove one rank (as proposed in the other thread), and give all ranks the option to choose a spell at the start of the duel.

So, for example, an apprentice has access to the basic 8, plus one other spell to be chosen at the start of the duel.

The next rank up, the Enchanter, gets the basic 8, plus their selected spell, plus one to be chosen at the start of the duel.

In a hypothetical duel, Enchanter Bob has the Meteor Swarm spell, and at the beginning of the duel chooses Reflection to augment his spells for that duel. His opponent, Apprentice Jill, chooses Artic Blast as her augment spell.

The basic idea would present a "Try before you Buy" sort of approach. Try out the various spells, gain rank, choose one for keeps. Try out another spell, gain rank, choose another one for keeps.

Plus, it would give the Apprentices something to play with.

Still pondering over your suggestion, but I know with the ART all entrants are either allowed all spells they have access to or are limited to the basic 8 plus one or two. With the first ART all duelists were allowed 1 advanced spell.

[Lem DeAngelo]

I think I like Jake's variation the best so far. Although, the more that I read these threads and some of the other OOC threads, I think I would most prefer to see DoM shift to allowing all players use the advanced spells on a trial basis for a few cycles.

I'm not trying to stray off of this topic, I'm just saying that yes I would most likely vote for Druid's proposal, but I still think a more effective solution is to allow all players use of the advanced spells. DoM's matrix is difficult (which makes it more enjoyable for me) but it shouldn't be so confusing to new players that they become frustrated with the system.

[Scorched Druid]

I think I like Jake's variation the best so far. Although, the more that I read these threads and some of the other OOC threads, I think I would most prefer to see DoM shift to allowing all players use the advanced spells on a trial basis for a few cycles.

I'm not trying to stray off of this topic, I'm just saying that yes I would most likely vote for Druid's proposal, but I still think a more effective solution is to allow all players use of the advanced spells. DoM's matrix is difficult (which makes it more enjoyable for me) but it shouldn't be so confusing to new players that they become frustrated with the system.

However, allowing all ranks access to the advanced four then eliminates any reason to make it above enchanter beyond being able to compete in the Archmage tournament. If players want to get there they don't really have to duel regularly can just wait for the ART to roll around then compete and get their free wins.

[Neo Eternity]

However, allowing all ranks access to the advanced four then eliminates any reason to make it above enchanter beyond being able to compete in the Archmage tournament. If players want to get there they don't really have to duel regularly can just wait for the ART to roll around then compete and get their free wins.

Players already don't have to duel regularly to get there. We have a Keeper who has utilized that strategy. Mart waits for the ART to roll around, then duels in it to get his wins. It happens that he's a pretty good tournament dueler. And that's how he made it to Keeper. The only time he's dueled in regular duels is when his title was on the line two months ago. ...And it's getting close again. At this rate, we may need to hold another Tower of Earth tourney. :/

[Scorched Druid]

Well there's a simple enough way to kill that spamming tactic.

[Lem DeAngelo]

I'll never understand how duelists would not be interested in gaining rank just because they didn't get to choose a spell after each rank increase. Sure it's a fun to get a new spell, but DoM itself should be fun enough to keep duelists interest without a reward. Winning is a reward. I don't need the cookie. Besides, the rewards/incentives run out at 20 WoL, but we still have a lot of mages and emeriti that keep coming back.

Neo previously mentioned an alternative incentive that I'd love to hear about. Or if anyone else has alternative incentive I'd like to hear those as well. If no one else wants to consider letting all ranks use the adv spells while gaining an alt incentive at rank increase, that's totally cool with me. Unless I lose 68 in a row, most of these suggestions won't affect me so I'm not very attached to any of them. I'm just tying to think of what would have the best impact on attracting new players and keeping them interested in DoM.

On the keeper/ART abuse. How about you need at least 5 WoL to be a keeper and you lose your status if you drop below 2 WoL? (someone feel free to make a new topic on Keepers/ART if you want to. Please no immolations for being off topic. Also, I'm on my blackberry so please excuse typos).

[Shadowlord]

Lem, having nothing tangible for a rank increase works fine for pure roleplayers, but for those who enjoy the challenge of the matrix game and only roleplay lightly on the side, no tangible advancement (in DoM's case, the gaining of a new spell) means they don't play. I think, to attract the widest player base, both types of participants need to be accommodated. At least, that's my take.

That said, I really can't think of a rank based advancement other than a new spell that makes sense in the framework of DoM.

[Scorched Druid]

Lem,

Winning may be one thing, but after a while simply winning a match isn't enough. You may be fine with that but not everyone is. This is a PvP styled game we play, like anything else there needs to be reward for the effort. If I beat 20 duelists and it's just a number beside my name without any other perk, I'm not going to want to stick around.

If winning is to be the reward then we'd have to introduce an Achievement roster where 5 wins gets you a Tornado in a Jar, 10 use of a Mage Spell for a Cycle, 15 Two Tornados, 20 a challenge shot to the Archmage, 30, Archmage for a Week etc. I'm not talking WoL, simply Wins period.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Thanks guys, but like I said, I really cannot understand the need for perks on gaining a ranks. I'm a gamer, not an RP'er. Like a good game of chess, I just want to have a good game and hopefully win. Needing achievement with rank increase makes me think people want their 20 WoL and then they are done with DoM. So unfortunately I'll never grasp the need for spells,mods whatever. But like I said a few minutes ago, that's just me. I'll support any attempt at a trial attempt to make DoM more enjoyable for everyone else.

[Scorched Druid]

Thinking back..maybe winning is incentive enough really. In DoS I know the big goal is to beat Jef Oakenshields 400 WoL, for DoM it is Steven's 200. Those are HUGE mile markers in skill.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Oh and Neo, I don't know the official policy, but I feel like ART wins used to count on the record, but not towards your date of last duel. That could help with keeper/ART abuse.

[Shadowlord]

Don't get me wrong Lem, I do understand. A huge part of why I play in any of the sports is for the thrill of the duel itself, regardless of what spells/mods/fancies my character has access to. But, I'll freely admit I do like the idea that my efforts, if successful, will gain me something more tangible than a number indicating my record, and bragging rights.

Just a clarification, don't want to get too far off topic.

[Scorched Druid]

To get back ON topic, I gave thought to Jakes idea and I see no reason why they cannot be integrated.

Apprentice has access to 1 Advanced spell per cycle. It goes beside their name permanantly, if they zero out they get to choose again. From there we step up to Enchanter who get access to the full Matrix with the +1 by their name to denote that they can use any 1 of the four per duel. +2 at Sorceror, +3 At Magician. Wizard gets all four spells and has to work towards that 20 WoL to get one of the last two spells.

This is actually the best way, to me at least, to integrate both without shaking the can too much.