My own DoM proposal.

[Lem DeAngelo]

If that's what's been decided, might as well not change a thing as this is akin to losing rank and then getting it back where you can change spell choice.

I agree with Druid here. By the time you realize ghostform isn't working for you, you've probably already lost rank. I'd still like to see more discussion and some playtesting. There have been some great ideas expressed. It would be a shame to not try them at all.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Of course not.

Sounded definitive. So I'm just asking for clarification.

[Wulfson]

I have to agree with Harris that the Mage Adept idea be squashed, for pretty much the same reasons.

Also, Neo said:

The Mage spells are overpowered anyways, in my opinion. NR is offensively overpowered and IM is defensively overpowered. We don't need them flying all over the place. It's already bad enough that some Magi use them against low ranks.

Both of the other sports have ranking systems that provide advantages of the higher ranked over the lower ranked. We don't have fancies though, we have spells. If you complain about using NR and Immo against lower ranks, you might as well complain about people using more fancies than their opponents (which I believe they are certainly entitled to).

Since FF and FT were added, MS, AB, and R don't provide nearly the advantage over the lower ranks as they used to, since the two former beat all three of the latter. If anything, FF and FT made it harder for the advanced ranks to advance farther when dueling against lower ranks. (which, come to think of it, FT and FF may be the root cause of everyone's complaints, if we just went back to the original 6 spells for apprentices, we might solve the whole problem)

Nether ray is one of the few offenses that beats both FF and FT finally counterbalancing the advantage FF and FT gave everyone against someone trying to use the advanced spells. Immo's terrible against apprentices, and actually works better when dueling the advanced ranks if they're using their advanced spells. So yes, NR and Immo give Mages some advantage, but then, they should have one (especially the Archmage).

If the advanced spells are supposed to be as great and overpowering as everyone keeps saying they are, then I really shouldn't be losing any duels against anyone ranked lower than me, but yet somehow I do...

[Neo Eternity]

I have to agree with Harris that the Mage Adept idea be squashed, for pretty much the same reasons.

Also, Neo said:

The Mage spells are overpowered anyways, in my opinion. NR is offensively overpowered and IM is defensively overpowered. We don't need them flying all over the place. It's already bad enough that some Magi use them against low ranks.

Both of the other sports have ranking systems that provide advantages of the higher ranked over the lower ranked. We don't have fancies though, we have spells. If you complain about using NR and Immo against lower ranks, you might as well complain about people using more fancies than their opponents (which I believe they are certainly entitled to).

Since FF and FT were added, MS, AB, and R don't provide nearly the advantage over the lower ranks as they used to, since the two former beat all three of the latter. If anything, FF and FT made it harder for the advanced ranks to advance farther when dueling against lower ranks. (which, come to think of it, FT and FF may be the root cause of everyone's complaints, if we just went back to the original 6 spells for apprentices, we might solve the whole problem)

Nether ray is one of the few offenses that beats both FF and FT finally counterbalancing the advantage FF and FT gave everyone against someone trying to use the advanced spells. Immo's terrible against apprentices, and actually works better when dueling the advanced ranks if they're using their advanced spells. So yes, NR and Immo give Mages some advantage, but then, they should have one (especially the Archmage).

If the advanced spells are supposed to be as great and overpowering as everyone keeps saying they are, then I really shouldn't be losing any duels against anyone ranked lower than me, but yet somehow I do...

Firstly, the advanced spells are not overpowered. They have very specific usability. You can do things with them that you couldn't do with the basic eight, but aside from that, they offer no advantages over what's already there.

And the preference to not use a mage spell against the lowest ranks is a matter of courtesy. There are people who use every mod/spell they have against bottom ranks. When you're rising through the ranks, sure, fine. Chances are you need the advantage. But once you've hit the top rank and gotten a few wins of padding, you don't need to do that anymore.

If somebody new or struggling decides to take the chance of dueling a high/top rank, that person's probably going to be capable of beating them even with a hand tied behind their back. And even if they don't, what's the harm? We are competing, but winning is not the most important thing here. What's the new player going to think when their top-rank opponent whales on them with everything they have and completely squashes them?

This is mainly only a thing with DoS/DoF, because of the mods. They create a dramatic difference in the speed of a duel, and how easily one person can score full points against another. In DoM, it's not nearly as bad because of the niche usability of the advanced tier. I still choose not to use advanced spells against bottom ranks regardless, but that's just me. The only time this gets to be a problem in DoM is when a mage uses mage spell(s) against an apprentice.

There is no reason to do that. That bottom-rank is new or struggling. The only thing it invokes is hopelessness and the feeling that everyone is here to win no matter what. In other words, it's terrible sportsmanship and terrible courtesy.

That's all I'm saying.

[Tasslehofl Momus]

There is no reason to do that. That bottom-rank is new or struggling. The only thing it invokes is hopelessness and the feeling that everyone is here to win no matter what. In other words, it's terrible sportsmanship and terrible courtesy.

Careful. You are putting yourself on very dangerous grounds.

I believe that just recently we went through these same.. ahh.. accusations? phrases? whatever.. with another of this dueling community. That did not turn out well for them.



I can say that people are already distancing themselves from DoM. Phrases such as what you have posted, as well as perhaps the perceived way it was posted, will not help this matter, especially from the Asst Coord.

Now you may have said them as a player, and a person, but you are still perceived as more than just that, and have been so since you took on those duties.

It would be a shame to see more leave because of this... continued rigidness.

[Scorched Druid]

I won't speak for anyone, however in the other two sports it is percieved as disrespectful to one's opponent to hold back. Is that mentality of respect not present in our own? If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an apprentice, I think that speaks more of the Apprentice's skills and the Mage recognizing them than anything negative.

Also, while we the players choose the moves, those choices are also based on our characters. If your (generic) character is someone that does not care what rank their opponent is, they will use whatever is at their disposal to win. That's a fact. If you're playing a villain type or anti-hero, you're going to use those empowered spells to best your opponent.

[Neo Eternity]

I can say that people are already distancing themselves from DoM. Phrases such as what you have posted, as well as perhaps the perceived way it was posted, will not help this matter, especially from the Asst Coord.

Now you may have said them as a player, and a person, but you are still perceived as more than just that, and have been so since you took on those duties.

It would be a shame to see more leave because of this... continued rigidness.

Listen, I'm not trying to be rigid. If I had the power to make it a rule that you couldn't use mage spells against an apprentice or something similar, I would not do that. Not without consent of the majority of the playerbase. I'm not here for the furtherment of some personal agenda. I'm here to make DoM better according to what the players want, and I am only one out of many.

My opinion will--and often has--contrast with that of the majority, but I should still be allowed to express it. That is my right as a player. I didn't join the staff to have that right taken away. Maybe my wording could have been better with consideration to my position, but player courtesy is something I care a lot about, and I believe it is important to the adoption of new players. I don't want DoM to be some closed, exclusive party, where the only people who play it are the same ones that always have. I don't want that for any of RoH.

I won't speak for anyone, however in the other two sports it is percieved as disrespectful to one's opponent to hold back. Is that mentality of respect not present in our own? If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an apprentice, I think that speaks more of the Apprentice's skills and the Mage recognizing them than anything negative.

Firstly, I've never heard of this, and I have quite a few veteran friends. Secondly, there's a difference between holding back and going all out. If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an Apprentice... well, just don't use them. Whose victory will benefit the venue more? That of a beginner who is new to the venue/a player who is struggling, or someone who has already reached the top anyways? The answer to this question should be obvious. Since some people are worrying about this, let me again state that this is just my opinion. I don't intend to force it as law upon anyone.

Also, while we the players choose the moves, those choices are also based on our characters. If your (generic) character is someone that does not care what rank their opponent is, they will use whatever is at their disposal to win. That's a fact. If you're playing a villain type or anti-hero, you're going to use those empowered spells to best your opponent.

This makes sense, in a way. I personally think it'd be more villainous for a villain to toy with someone weaker than them. Even if they're not necessarily weaker than them; Drake Genais toyed with Etheran Esperwind of all people, until he got the TIJ busted out on him. But again, that's my opinion.

[Scorched Druid]

I won't speak for anyone, however in the other two sports it is percieved as disrespectful to one's opponent to hold back. Is that mentality of respect not present in our own? If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an apprentice, I think that speaks more of the Apprentice's skills and the Mage recognizing them than anything negative.

Firstly, I've never heard of this, and I have quite a few veteran friends. Secondly, there's a difference between holding back and going all out.

That difference is for the player to decide if it fits their character or not. Not every villain enjoys toying with their prey. Many will just crush them and move on to something that matters more.

Showing respect to your opponent whether they are truly a new player or someone's alternative is doing your best to beat them as they are doing their best to beat you. If they set you into a spot where you have to use a Mage spell to regain or get that all important lead distance, then you do it. as for this...

If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an Apprentice...well just don't use them

That's not even an answer and it borders on a disrespectful recommendation. If you have to use the spell to win...then don't win? You do know that some Mages who may return or read this hold a 20 WoL and entering every regular duel requires them to win their first handful of matches. You have just told them to lose if they have to use their Mage spell.

You can't ask everyone to be respectful and hold back on the lower ranks, because that's blending. Some characters are just a$$holes and go all out because they can.

Some characters are just a$$holes and go all out because they can.

This is something we all need to keep in mind. We're playing the game using the mechanics prescribed and our characters to fit those rules. If Anubis were ArchMage, do you think he'd restrain himself from dropping a bomb on someone's head just because they're weaker/less skilled? Hell no.

I understand that you are speaking as a player and you do have a right to an opinion. However your words reflect what you represent. You are a Community Leader for DoM and therefore every statement you make, the wording you choose, reflects upon the community you are addressing. If statements are perceived as rigid and unbending, then the community will perceive you to be the very same. This is what keeps many away from DoM; the administration showing itself to be rigid and unyielding

[Neo Eternity]

If a Mage has to use their top-tier spells to beat an Apprentice...well just don't use them

That's not even an answer and it borders on a disrespectful recommendation. If you have to use the spell to win...then don't win? You do know that some Mages who may return or read this hold a 20 WoL and entering every regular duel requires them to win their first handful of matches. You have just told them to lose if they have to use their Mage spell.

I did not *tell* them to. I thought I just got done saying that my opinion is not law? And besides, you conveniently read over something I had said in my original post concerning player courtesy: "But once you've hit the top rank and gotten a few wins of padding, you don't need to do that anymore."

You can't ask everyone to be respectful and hold back on the lower ranks, because that's blending. Some characters are just a$$holes and go all out because they can.

Then so be it. If they can't be courteous without blending, then let them be discourteous. I don't want to remove that right.

This is something we all need to keep in mind. We're playing the game using the mechanics prescribed and our characters to fit those rules. If Anubis were ArchMage, do you think he'd restrain himself from dropping a bomb on someone's head just because they're weaker/less skilled? Hell no.

Actually... "Whose victory will benefit the venue more? That of a beginner who is new to the venue/a player who is struggling, or someone who has already reached the top anyways?" Anubis's player said that to me, albeit in different words. I have fought Anubis several times in DoF, and I think he mght have used a grand total of maybe two mods on me, and then, only just to catch up to me a little bit. Besides, I'm fairly certain it's not in Anubis's character to exert such effort against "fellahin", as he would likely call them.

[Carley]

As I think on the current discussion, I don't necessarily think that the problem is, in of itself, high ranked people using their fancies/feints/special spells on low ranked people.

In DoF and DoS, there's far more active there than DoM. So low ranked people have more options in who they can duel. There's more *peers* for them to go after, and they're not "forced" to duel those who are much higher than them in rank if they're really jonesing for a duel.

In DoM, the pickings are more slim given low activity. So one starting out doesn't always have the option of picking peers if there's nothing but mages and high ranked people around.

In DoS if I duel someone and they go all out with their fancies? I do get somewhat annoyed, I'll admit. But live and learn. I have the option of just not dueling that person again if I'm trying to climb rank (which hasn't worked out so well yet, haha). It doesn't bother me in Fists, admittedly, on a low rank since I already have two high rankers there.

I don't feel that choice is as readily available in magic, given low numbers, and is possibly a reason there's such malcontent with some (that I share) at the fact so many mages and high ranked people who duel in ART.

[Carley]

And just to argue semantics on the whole idea of a character 'holding back' by not using their fancies...

Many consider a fancy to be an OOC mechanic to the game, not an IC mechanic. In that sense, a villain can fight their opponent viciously without 'holding back' IC. Not using a fancy doesn't mean they're holding back, since the fancy is OOC mechanic.

Of course that's only to those who subscribe to that theory. I am personally of that category, as you will never ever hear my characters talk about 'fancies' in play.

Granted DoM doesn't work in that way as the new spells learned are definitely IC. Though in that regard, not everyone uses each spell exactly as described, which is one thing that's really fun about magic dueling. The RP possibilities and creativity one can put into it. Which is why it really burns me when I duel people and consistently have them call out what my character is casting. But that's really another rant entirely... :\

[Scorched Druid]

I left that out because it contradicted your whole argument. Adding that in makes your statement read thus:

"If you've got padding and can afford the loss then lose, if you need the win, then use it."

First you gave the opinion that Mages shouldn't use their Mage spells against Apprentice/Enchanter etc, then you say it's okay if you (generic) need the win. That is your recommendation as the DoM Asst. Coord.

[Misty]

Alright, that's enough.

There's one basic tenent to life. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

I've been keeping my nose out of this opinion flame war, up to now, for good reason. Floods notwithstanding.

Now then, can we get back to the topic at hand?

I may have missed it somewhere, but I remember the original idea of this thread, and thought it was a good one. Did anything get decided about that?

[Carley]

I may have missed it somewhere, but I remember the original idea of this thread, and thought it was a good one. Did anything get decided about that?

http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 949#135949

[Wulfson]

One reason why I would oppose the main suggestion of this thread, is that the present rank/spell system reflects the way that magic is learned in most gaming systems and/or sci-fi/fantasy literature. One starts at an apprentice level knowing a handful of spells, and gradually gains additional spell knowledge as one advances in wisdom or power. One must choose one's spells wisely and learn to use what they have to the best of their ability if they wish to further their goals. If one was allowed to choose one's spells at the beginning of every duel, it would go against the normal progression of learning magic that the DoM ranking system represents.

Now, yes, I am well aware that most new duelists are RPing practictioners of the arts that are well past the apprentice stage, but their characters should be able to appreciate the reason why the progression is how it is, even if the mun does not (or vice versa). How the duelist RPs their spell progression (do they actually learn the new spell, or do they finally attain the right to use it) in the duels is entirely up to them.

Now granted, I don't know if this reason alone would prevent me from supporting this possible change, but I wanted to throw it out there to see if I'm not the only one that has this issue with it.