My own DoM proposal.

[Wulfson]

The problem with the ART is simply that, Will. It's every rank.

Well then, if the original intent of the complaint was "I wish it had been an Apprentice Tournament instead, with the advanced spells but without the advanced ranks", then I misread it.

But Soerl, your opinion on the ART is pretty harsh, especially if you consider that the ART at present is the closest thing DoM has to DoS Madness, which is all about all ranks entering, having fun, and bragging rights. Do you find fault with the Warlords, Barons, and Overlord for entering DoS Madness? (which, by the way, didn't give everyone equal fancies).

You think it's fun being Archmage when all you have to look forward to is someone challenging you once every two months? At least the mages get to enter the AM tournament. The AM just has to sit there and wait and duel one person at the end. Now, that doesn't mean we can't keep the occasional All Ranks tournament, but we could throw in our own version of the Talon of Redwin now and then too (and maybe a true DoM Madness if there was enough interest).

The Keepers were made accessible to the lower ranks from the beginning on purpose, specifically to give them more challenge and RP opportunities, plus it fit in with the RP premise of the Keepers.

[Scorched Druid]

For this, I need to post away from the other one.

Before the ART the ONLY tournament DoM had was the Archmage tournament. And I'm pretty damned sure if we go back through the ART's history we'll see that very few Mages have won it. A Sorceror won the very first one, BEATING a mage and former archmage. This last one Rock, an unknown won and beat Sivanna to do it. The fact that Mages can enter being a negative seems...slippery.

I'll have to run some numbers but off and on DoM has seen the same thing DoS sees off and on. You have a Mage/Warlord in a room full of Commoners/Apprentices, it is rare for the bottom to accept a duel from the top and so the seasoned duelist won't see a single duel. I've seen this myself albeit not recently in both. If Mage's need to corner people to duel then there is a serious problem with the lower ranks. I think it calls for cheese.

Carley and Soerl you both have high rank characters though I don't see you that often mostly due to different time frames to play, but upper ranks getting their requests ignored is a serious annoyance for others.

Many Warlords/Barons/Mages/Emeralds can stand around in a room for HOURS and request duels with no one accepting preferring to duel people their own rank or lower. Or my personal favorite, the duelist that only accepts responses to THEIR duel requests and won't accept others. There is some misconcieved stereotype that because a character is a Mage/Emerald/Warlord that they'll beat the hell out of anyone who's not similar rank.

[Carley]

Carley and Soerl you both have high rank characters though I don't see you that often mostly due to different time frames to play, but this is a serious annoyance for others.

What does the fact I have a high ranked character in FISTS have anything to do with anything going on in this thread?

[Scorched Druid]

I edited that statement to clarify.

[Harris]

The problem with the ART is simply that, Will. It's every rank.

Well then, if the original intent of the complaint was "I wish it had been an Apprentice Tournament instead, with the advanced spells but without the advanced ranks", then I misread it.

But Soerl, your opinion on the ART is pretty harsh, especially if you consider that the ART at present is the closest thing DoM has to DoS Madness, which is all about all ranks entering, having fun, and bragging rights. Do you find fault with the Warlords, Barons, and Overlord for entering DoS Madness? (which, by the way, didn't give everyone equal fancies).

You think it's fun being Archmage when all you have to look forward to is someone challenging you once every two months? At least the mages get to enter the AM tournament. The AM just has to sit there and wait and duel one person at the end. Now, that doesn't mean we can't keep the occasional All Ranks tournament, but we could throw in our own version of the Talon of Redwin now and then too (and maybe a true DoM Madness if there was enough interest).

The Keepers were made accessible to the lower ranks from the beginning on purpose, specifically to give them more challenge and RP opportunities, plus it fit in with the RP premise of the Keepers.

There's a huge difference between the ART and DoS Madness. For starters, the prizes and benefits of winning or placing in the Madness potentially help everyone. A Warlord has a direct line to challenge the Overlord by winning the Madness, which isn't available now outside the WLT. A Baron may not be a Baron by the end of the tournament. Look at Neo, for example. He entered as a Baron, placed second as a Warlord after he lost his title. Now he's got a grant to utilize. The Overlord can hand out grants to get rid of Renegade Barons that may want to challenge for his title. Find me a benefit a Mage or above gains from the ART outside of competition.

The ART's *primary* prize system is keeping your wins. A lower rank can duel other, higher ranks on mostly even ground without risk. The gains in an ART are skewed *heavily* toward the lower ranks. It's just obvious.

[Carley]

Also! Harris said it best when he said lower ranks need their own cyclic tournament.

The problem so much isn't that everyone can enter ART, but that low ranked people in magic would very much like to have their own low rank tournament, just as Fists and Swords does. If a low rank cycle tournament can be implemented I would be all for keeping ART as it is now, because I don't necessarily want to take more away from high ranks when there's a limited choice of things for them to participate in in the first place.

[Soerl Lute]

My opinion was harsh, yes. There's a reason for that. Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not saying the high ranks shouldn't have stuff to do. Soerl's a Mage. I like being able to do special tournaments and events.

However comparing the ART to Madness is something I see very little parallels to. It's true that it allows characters of all ranks to participate. If the Overlord wins Madness? Well, yeah. There's not much there that benefits anyone. However, even if a Baron wins (like recently) there's options. And again, there are zero benefits to anyone the rank of Mage or higher winning the ART aside from getting some wins.

The Overlord in DoS sees more action than the AM. There's no doubt there. The Diamond is in the same position as the AM, however. The whole point of that is getting to the top, isn't it? The RP is what determines whether or not someone feels like doing it again, but that is strictly a personal opinion.

I'm not in opposition to the ART. I've participated in it before, but like I said there's gotta be something for *just* the low ranks. An equivalent to the Talon, like you mentioned, is a good start.

[Topaz]

In regards to the all ranks tournament, let me repeat what I said elsewhere in the board about low rank tournaments.

We used to have apprentice only tournaments. People that wanted to be in the tournament but only had higher ranked characters simply made new characters so they could participate with them. With the All ranks tournaments at least you (general you) know (most of the time) if in any given tournament round, you're up against a more or less experienced opponent. Also, everyone has access to the same amount of spells in an ART, so everyone performs at the same rank.

[Scorched Druid]

Soerl, Carley,

I apologize for that post, it just touched on a nerve and I snapped. The reaction was uncalled for and really didn't have a place in this thread.

[Carley]

In regards to the all ranks tournament, let me repeat what I said elsewhere in the board about low rank tournaments.

We used to have apprentice only tournaments. People that wanted to be in the tournament but only had higher ranked characters simply made new characters so they could participate with them. With the All ranks tournaments at least you (general you) know (most of the time) if in any given tournament round, you're up against a more or less experienced opponent. Also, everyone has access to the same amount of spells in an ART, so everyone performs at the same rank.

There doesn't need to be an 'apprentice-only' tournament. Frankly DoM doesn't have the numbers to support such a thing. But I and many others do feel a low rank tournament (for those below mage) would help give a "newbie friendly" appeal to DoM that it currently lacks, or be a step in the right direction to start giving it that appeal. To poo poo such opinions away without even a sliver of consideration does no favors for anyone, or the sport itself.

[Carley]

Soerl, Carley,

I apologize for that post, it just touched on a nerve and I snapped. The reaction was uncalled for and really didn't have a place in this thread.

Druid, it's all good. Your edit clarifies for me what it is you meant. That some refuse to duel those of high rank because of the assumption that high rank will always trump low rank. I agree that sometimes this is a problem, and it's a problem that likely hurts DoM more than the other sports because of the low numbers DoM has. And I can understand that in wanting to pull in new players, one wouldn't want to drive away those that have stuck by it for so long.

I wish I could offer a solution when it comes to those of low rank refusing to duel those of high rank, in any sport. Unfortunately I have none. :\ For me, who I choose to duel and not duel has always been about personal choice and what I'm seeking at the time. If I'm seeking rank advancement or risk losing rank, I admit I tend to veer away from those at high ranks, or even those I just perceive as being particularly talented at the duels. If I'm seeking fun, I'll duel anyone at any rank that I find fun.

And high rank or low, if someone doesn't interest me or duel me in a manner I find respectful, I stay clear period.

I can only suggest that people give it a shot with a high rank person they've never dueled before, even if they're at low rank. If you have fun with that person, and you duel well together? It's a pleasant surprise! If you wanted to eat your keyboard afterwards, you now know and don't have to go out of your way to duel that person again.

[Topaz]

Many Warlords/Barons/Mages/Emeralds can stand around in a room for HOURS and request duels with no one accepting preferring to duel people their own rank or lower. Or my personal favorite, the duelist that only accepts responses to THEIR duel requests and won't accept others. There is some misconcieved stereotype that because a character is a Mage/Emerald/Warlord that they'll beat the hell out of anyone who's not similar rank.

This is so very true! It's been not just one evening but many that Topaz was on the isle and in the arena asking for duels and had not gotten a single one in four hours. That is the main reason that character is now rarely out with the purpose to duel. It's just no fun to have a character more or less ignored for entire evenings just because they have a rank.
Evenings that I feel like dueling I feel forced to hide behind a new face in order to enjoy a string of duels.

[Maranya Valkonan]

I have a simple solution to give the lower ranks in DoM their own tournament.

How about making the Ring Of Klytus a Tournament prize, instead of the system in place now?

My proposal for this tournament is to limit the entries to the middle rank, in other words Magician, and below, so as to truly fulfill the intent of this tournament.

This tournament would be held in addition to the ART and AMT, and at the beginning of each cycle, so that the winner could have the benefit of RoK for the entire cycle.

[Soerl Lute]

No problem, Druid. It's not like you started calling people names left and right or anything. The edit made me understand what you were getting at. Like I said, I'm not wanting all the Mages to get up and retire or anything. Nor do I think people shouldn't post their suggestions, I just think we need to start somewhere simple rather than "Hm, my car won't start. Guess I better rebuild the engine."

[Harris]

Many Warlords/Barons/Mages/Emeralds can stand around in a room for HOURS and request duels with no one accepting preferring to duel people their own rank or lower. Or my personal favorite, the duelist that only accepts responses to THEIR duel requests and won't accept others. There is some misconcieved stereotype that because a character is a Mage/Emerald/Warlord that they'll beat the hell out of anyone who's not similar rank.

This is so very true! It's been not just one evening but many that Topaz was on the isle and in the arena asking for duels and had not gotten a single one in four hours. That is the main reason that character is now rarely out with the purpose to duel. It's just no fun to have a character more or less ignored for entire evenings just because they have a rank.
Evenings that I feel like dueling I feel forced to hide behind a new face in order to enjoy a string of duels.

DoM has the worst parity in all the sports and the smallest base. Of course the lower ranks are going to avoid the upper ranks in that case. It's not a problem with the lower ranks whatsoever. It's a problem with the system, obviously.