Just a Concern...

[Rayvinn]

Okay, I am trying not to be hateful when I say this but it needs to be addressed.

Be careful when you imply that people are cheating. Because unless you have proof, you are damaging not only their reputation, but their ability to enjoy the game as well. Such implications are serious and should not be taken lightly or because you are upset at having lost a duel. Just because someone role plays with someone you don't like or you think cheats...that doesn't mean that they are a cheat. To make someone guilty by association like that is elementary. I am pretty sure we are all adults here.

I would say be especially careful when you are slandering a caller. Someone that does NOT get paid to further your enjoyment of this game, but gives their own free time to ensure other people get to duel. When you imply that a caller is cheating, that doesn't just effect one caller. It effects them all because a seed of doubt is planted.

I may not duel often, but I have a ton of respect for the callers and all of the people that work so hard to keep this running.

I am not posting this to attack one person. This is something that has come up before with other people and it just seems that now, especially as someone I respect is hurt by this, that someone should say something.

I am not trying to fire the first shot to start a war here. I just think that tempers run pretty hot in this game and people might say things that aren't entirely accurate in the heat of the moment. Those things hurt real people.

That's it.

[Jaycy Ashleana]

Baseless impugning of callers is a serious offense; as Raye said, the harm to the integrity of one affects every single one of us. This community, this game, is built on trust and to attempt to smear the name of a caller just because of a lost duel is malicious and should not be tolerated.

While I agree that generally callers shouldn’t be able to refuse to call duels for people, I feel that this type of situation – where duelers are calling the integrity of the callers into question – callers should be able to refuse to call duels for that person. Trust is both ways; if the callers can’t trust the dueler to trust them to be fair, they shouldn’t have to put themselves in a situation where they’re forced to wonder if someone is going to level an accusation.

That aside, a helpful hint for everyone: if you (general you), at all, do not trust a caller to call a duel because of who his or her friends are – DON’T DUEL WITH THAT PERSON CALLING THE MATCH. Don’t allow it and then complain that person was cheating just because you (general you) lost.

[Soerl Lute]

I hope whomever the caller is continues to call and isn't too negatively affected by this. It's disheartening when, as a caller, someone accuses you of cheating. I agree with you, Raye, that it can plant a seed of doubt and open a can of worms no one wants. Accusing or even implying a caller cheated is a serious thing to say and better left unsaid if it can't be proved. Hurting another person over losing is wrong, temper flare or not.

Most everyone who participates in the duels handles losing in a gracious manner OOC, where it matters. It's a fact of the game. You will lose. Anyone who can't handle that doesn't need to duel.

[G]

I'm not permitted to post while angry.

Just FYI.

[Rayvinn]

No, you are not. So stop posting, right this instant, young man!

Calm down and take a deep breath!

[Goldglo]

If any player has what they believe is valid proof that cheating took place (regardless of who's involved from a player or caller standpoint), they should bring their evidence to the administrative staff.

Cheating is not something that will be tolerated.

Baseless accusastions of cheating will also not be tolerated.

Accusations of cheating with substantiating proof will be investigated and dealt with accordingly.

Players should not accuse other players of cheating without legitimate suspicion or proof they believe validates their claim.

For the situation at hand, I wholeheartedly invite whomever believes cheating took place to contact any of the coordinators or the RoH administrative staff with their beliefs as to the whos and wheres and whens and hows cheating took place.

For the situation at hand, if whomever thought cheating took place has since learned otherwise or changed their point of view, I sincerely hope that an apology will be provided to the other parties involved.

Again, cheating is something taken very seriously by the RoH staff (Admins, Coordinators & Callers), as are accusations of cheating. Claims and accusations of cheating should never be made lightly and most especially not out of anger or frustration at the result of a duel. For the sake of players and callers alike, I caution any and all players to avoid baseless accusations of cheating or accusations of cheating without evidence that cheating took place.

Please -- if you (generic you) as a player are going to take the step of leveling a claim of cheating, or spreading a rumor of cheating or thinking that cheating's taking place and expressing that concern to other players -- please have something to legitimize and substantiate that claim and then bring that claim to the administrative staff. In such instances, "something" needs to be more than an "I think" or "I have a feeling" or "That person should never have beaten that other person that badly" or "There's just no other explanation for Dueler X beating Dueler Y" or "I don't like Dueler X" or "Dueler X wins too much".

--Matt

[PrlUnicorn]

I am pretty sure we are all adults here.

I wouldn't make that assumption. Several of the players here now started with the duels in their teens. I wouldn't be surprised if we have some younger folks playing. Not everyone is ready for the geriatric ward like me.

Most everyone who participates in the duels handles losing in a gracious manner OOC, where it matters. It's a fact of the game. You will lose. Anyone who can't handle that doesn't need to duel.

Perfectly stated.

That aside, a helpful hint for everyone: if you (general you), at all, do not trust a caller to call a duel because of who his or her friends are – DON’T DUEL WITH THAT PERSON CALLING THE MATCH. Don’t allow it and then complain that person was cheating just because you (general you) lost.

If a player doesn't trust a caller on any given shift, the answer is simple, don't duel during that shift. If you don't like a caller's style, you can also avoid that shift.

It's for this reason when choosing a challenge caller, I go to Tass first. I can't think of anyone in the dueling community that does not trust him to be impartial in his calls.

It is best to make arrangements OOC for callers to avoid any unnecessary complications over things. And the management should be supportive, both IC and OOC, of either player or character involved that objects to a caller.

Case in point:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 393#143393
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 394#143394

First of all, I have no objections to Lily, the caller that was mentioned. She's always been fair in her calls and fun in her RP.

I don't presume to know what, if anything, was decided OOC in the noted circumstances, but if an objection is raised for any reason, it's incumbent upon the challenged and challenger to come to an agreement and the management should be respectful of that and not be shoving a decision, that might be effected by OOC trust issues, down someone's throat. Such a thing is bound to backfire in some fashion.

[Seirichi]

Case in point:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 393#143393
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 394#143394

I'd like to point out that my stating this wasn't because of any thoughts of cheating. I didn't know if Lilys internet connection was currently still having problems or not. I didn't want to risk having to postpone the match or having to ask another caller to take her place as I'm not really well connected with the other callers / AIM names. Something like that happened during an ArchMage challenge and was called in on Apple to help finish the match. I brought this up with Lily before the challenge started to make sure there was no misunderstanding.

[PrlUnicorn]

Case in point:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 393#143393
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 394#143394

I'd like to point out that my stating this wasn't because of any thoughts of cheating. I didn't know if Lilys internet connection was currently still having problems or not. I didn't want to risk having to postpone the match or having to ask another caller to take her place as I'm not really well connected with the other callers / AIM names. Something like that happened during an ArchMage challenge and was called in on Apple to help finish the match. I brought this up with Lily before the challenge started to make sure there was no misunderstanding.

I understand this and am glad to see the clarification. I was not trying to imply that you had accused Lily, or anyone else for that matter, of cheating. My point is that the management should have take a more objective stance on this than what amounts to suck it up and deal. It sets a precedent that can cause moments later like, "But you said that when this happened," making a different decision in the same circumstances awkward at best.

[MurOllavan]

I'm going on the assumption that it wasn't actual cheating, but my suggestions will be useful to anyone frustrated. In the event of actual cheating which of course could cause our ever shrinking community to disintegrate please see Matt's excellent post.

Cheating.

You as a caller/player giving/getting information about the move selection of another player which also would include any advice at all about the current match or even dueling advice in general during the match.

Not cheating.

Scouting. Sounds like they put more effort in than you.
A player's character RP'ed in such a way as to suggest future moves. Toying with your head is not cheating.
Someone winning too much. Call the winning police.

Harris put up a guide for the frustrated. I only say this assuming this is some act of frustration - if you are that angry you really need to understand its just a game. Please note that his first tip is to not get emotional.

[Kalamere]

My point is that the management should have take a more objective stance on this than what amounts to suck it up and deal. It sets a precedent that can cause moments later like, "But you said that when this happened," making a different decision in the same circumstances awkward at best.

I don't think that's really a fair way to characterize Neo's response. Perhaps if Seirichi had uttered some complaint about Lily or in any way mentioned discomfort, it would be. But when she says thanks for offer and that she'd accept except that she just happens to have her mind set on Sai; I think Neo's correction that it's not really her call to be making is completely appropriate.

[PrlUnicorn]

My point is that the management should have take a more objective stance on this than what amounts to suck it up and deal. It sets a precedent that can cause moments later like, "But you said that when this happened," making a different decision in the same circumstances awkward at best.

I don't think that's really a fair way to characterize Neo's response. Perhaps if Seirichi had uttered some complaint about Lily or in any way mentioned discomfort, it would be. But when she says thanks for offer and that she'd accept except that she just happens to have her mind set on Sai; I think Neo's correction that it's not really her call to be making is completely appropriate.

Had a reason been asked for on that post, the decision might have been different, it could have been noted as: "Lily disappeared while calling a tournament and I would prefer that not happen during our match, so I would prefer X or Y." ((Lily has had connection issues and I would prefer another caller or a backup to be standing by)).

However, in fairness to Neo, he was suffering from major burn out at that point and might not have been thinking about the long range whys and wherefores.

[Kalamere]

With a reason stated in the Seirichi's post, I don't see why Neo would have been obligated to ask for another one. Burn out or no, I hardly see Neo doing long term damage by setting a bad precedent here.

There is a world of difference between saying "I was hoping for Sai" vs. "I'd prefer it not be Lily." Had it been the latter I might agree with you, but being as it was the former, I think you're being a bit overly harsh on Neo.

~Kal

[Jake]

Part of this is etiquette.

There is no *rule* that says the challenger gets to pick (or has to find) a caller, or vice versa that the defender gets to pick (or has to find) a caller.

Etiquette says that you should find a caller that both duelers are comfortable with.

Nor should anyone be given grief for declining a caller. Nor should they be required to give a reason. It should be enough to say "I prefer someone else."

Now, that said, it's not fair if someone demands that it be this or that caller (narrowing it down to 1 or 2 people). There needs to be flexibility to find someone both duelers can agree upon, who will also agree to call the duel, and that is available at the same time as the two duelers.

As with all things in our sport and in our community. It comes down to trust and cooperation. We're playing *with* people. Not at them. Make an effort. Be cooperative.

[PrlUnicorn]

Etiquette says that you should find a caller that both duelers are comfortable with.

That, right there. Thanks, Jake!

And Sean...

Not cheating.

Scouting. Sounds like they put more effort in than you.
A player's character RP'ed in such a way as to suggest future moves. Toying with your head is not cheating.
Someone winning too much. Call the winning police.

Thanks for the chuckle on that last one!
Often we find ourselves dueling with a variety of characters, but against the same core group of players. If we don't learn something about that, whether or not we're actively scouting, then it also comes under the someone put in more effort category.