Starting this Thursday, February 8th, the Duel of Swords will be hosted in the RDI from 9-12.
Mark your calendars!
DoS Thursdays Moves to the RDI
Moderator: Staff
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DUEL Chris Graz
- Adventurer
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:07 am
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Scorched Druid
- Adventurer
- Professional Grouch
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:07 pm
- Location: Currently either in a room above the Outback or his hut.
I don't like doing this, but I'll cast the first negative stone, as many are probably being sharpened. Just playing Devil's Advocate.
Where was the fair warning to the populace on this move? The discussion to take it over there on Thursdays? Heck, in RL you get a two week notice when you're fired. The admins just decide to take it over there without consulting the players?
I understand the DoF on monday was moved over there to low participation, but Thursdays cannot be that bad, can they?
True this is a large game with many players, but to just up and move without shooting a note to the regular players is a little underhanded. Even Des gave the DoF people a few weeks notice saying "hey..we'll be over here on this date just to let you know." But to just announce something like this out of the blue? Where's the responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on thursdays looking for duels and are denied?
Its one thing to keep bridging that gap between RDI and RoH, but we have two completely different player bases. This is asking some to go out of their way to register on the RDI just so they can duel and RP. To use the flash chat you have to register with the RDI board. There are duelists on the standings who are not registered on the RoH boards, sure they register eventually if they start challenging and what not. But what about the people who just duel for the fun of it? You're asking them to create accounts they will never really use outside of dueling.
I understand this is meant to be good for our player base, but I see one catch. You'll get mostly RDI folks dueling on Thursday, maybe a handful of RoH people. And the RoH players who choose not to conform will shift their regular days to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I also understand this is a possible ploy to get RoH folks to adjust to playing in FC with the new RoH, but the main argument in this long rant is. The players were not given any warning, no chance to give the admins any feedback on if this is something they want, and was this move discussed by all of the administrators and supervisors, or just a random choice because on the surface the move sounds good for RoH as a whole?
I don't mean to come of as a killjoy or negative, but I'm just really curious how this decision was made without any questions given to the players. And one last thing, was this choice made out of a desire to see a short term increase in duels rather than a long term? The Tour caused this, a nice jump in duels, but then everything died down to how it was before. True the DoF at the RDI is busy when its there, but has than done anything to increase numbers at the other nights? No. The RDI folks duel when its at the FC, but only a handful seem to come to our rooms. We're being asked to go over there, yet how many of them come here? Not very many. DoS/M/F is our game, we've been good sports and gone over there to show them our world and have drawn in some new blood, but that blood has stayed at the RDI for the most part and doesn't want to fully come into our realm.
The point of that little rant is simply, we shouldn't make choices based on quick results. I hold nothing against FlashChat, but you're constantly saying "you don't get any input, we're moving to FC and you had better get used to it fast." and "you want to argue? Tough, you're just negative, either conform or you hate the duels anyway" This type of stuff makes doubters feel like preaching to the choir and when you want their opion they just go "Eh, you'll do what you want, what does our opinion matter?"
I shouldn't have to say anything more. Decisions such as this, that are made out of the blue without a reaction test from the player base usually come from a need for quick results, not any long term plan with a set goal. You want to see an increase in sport participation? Do NOT put an ultimatum on the players to either go here, or don't duel at all.
Yes, I'm registered at the RDI as are my alts, so don't bother shooting back with that. I play at both, but my loyalty lies with RoH. It takes time for people to adjust, and a move to the RDI without proper warning is the same as giving Thursday regulars an eviction notice.
We have a large player base, the move to FC and the RDI needs to be gradual, it can't be pushed into a matter of months. When you move to a new house, the old isn't sold immediately, it can sit there for as long as a couple years before being bought by someone new. While we're all having to find new rooms at the new "house" what about the old that's still just sitting there? What becomes of it? I can tell you what might happen. You'll create dual forums. You'll have duels happening in one place, while the same sport is taking place at the old house. Two standings reports, two shifts at the same time.
True, the one will have more life to it, but the other will push on stubbornly because it holds onto the memories made. And if the dual forum doesn't happen...you'll see players that have been around for years quit dueling rather than deal with FC and the hassles that come with it, its kind of rediculous when an entire room can get disconnected at once.
This isn't meant to offend or insult anyone, but I know some will take it as such. Dueling is my hobby. I enjoy it..wins, losses, ties. Its all good. I duel for the fun of it and don't look to get insulted, but forcing a choice like this is low. I hear there's a D&D 4.0 now, sure many that choose not to conform will find a way to fill their freetime.
Alright, that's it for me and my well meant cautioning to the admininstrators and staff. I hope you all see my p.o.v and understand the concerns I've listed above. I'm sure some of you considered them, but decisions shouldn't be made without an understanding of how the players with only a voice will react.
Where was the fair warning to the populace on this move? The discussion to take it over there on Thursdays? Heck, in RL you get a two week notice when you're fired. The admins just decide to take it over there without consulting the players?
I understand the DoF on monday was moved over there to low participation, but Thursdays cannot be that bad, can they?
True this is a large game with many players, but to just up and move without shooting a note to the regular players is a little underhanded. Even Des gave the DoF people a few weeks notice saying "hey..we'll be over here on this date just to let you know." But to just announce something like this out of the blue? Where's the responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on thursdays looking for duels and are denied?
Its one thing to keep bridging that gap between RDI and RoH, but we have two completely different player bases. This is asking some to go out of their way to register on the RDI just so they can duel and RP. To use the flash chat you have to register with the RDI board. There are duelists on the standings who are not registered on the RoH boards, sure they register eventually if they start challenging and what not. But what about the people who just duel for the fun of it? You're asking them to create accounts they will never really use outside of dueling.
I understand this is meant to be good for our player base, but I see one catch. You'll get mostly RDI folks dueling on Thursday, maybe a handful of RoH people. And the RoH players who choose not to conform will shift their regular days to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I also understand this is a possible ploy to get RoH folks to adjust to playing in FC with the new RoH, but the main argument in this long rant is. The players were not given any warning, no chance to give the admins any feedback on if this is something they want, and was this move discussed by all of the administrators and supervisors, or just a random choice because on the surface the move sounds good for RoH as a whole?
I don't mean to come of as a killjoy or negative, but I'm just really curious how this decision was made without any questions given to the players. And one last thing, was this choice made out of a desire to see a short term increase in duels rather than a long term? The Tour caused this, a nice jump in duels, but then everything died down to how it was before. True the DoF at the RDI is busy when its there, but has than done anything to increase numbers at the other nights? No. The RDI folks duel when its at the FC, but only a handful seem to come to our rooms. We're being asked to go over there, yet how many of them come here? Not very many. DoS/M/F is our game, we've been good sports and gone over there to show them our world and have drawn in some new blood, but that blood has stayed at the RDI for the most part and doesn't want to fully come into our realm.
The point of that little rant is simply, we shouldn't make choices based on quick results. I hold nothing against FlashChat, but you're constantly saying "you don't get any input, we're moving to FC and you had better get used to it fast." and "you want to argue? Tough, you're just negative, either conform or you hate the duels anyway" This type of stuff makes doubters feel like preaching to the choir and when you want their opion they just go "Eh, you'll do what you want, what does our opinion matter?"
I shouldn't have to say anything more. Decisions such as this, that are made out of the blue without a reaction test from the player base usually come from a need for quick results, not any long term plan with a set goal. You want to see an increase in sport participation? Do NOT put an ultimatum on the players to either go here, or don't duel at all.
Yes, I'm registered at the RDI as are my alts, so don't bother shooting back with that. I play at both, but my loyalty lies with RoH. It takes time for people to adjust, and a move to the RDI without proper warning is the same as giving Thursday regulars an eviction notice.
We have a large player base, the move to FC and the RDI needs to be gradual, it can't be pushed into a matter of months. When you move to a new house, the old isn't sold immediately, it can sit there for as long as a couple years before being bought by someone new. While we're all having to find new rooms at the new "house" what about the old that's still just sitting there? What becomes of it? I can tell you what might happen. You'll create dual forums. You'll have duels happening in one place, while the same sport is taking place at the old house. Two standings reports, two shifts at the same time.
True, the one will have more life to it, but the other will push on stubbornly because it holds onto the memories made. And if the dual forum doesn't happen...you'll see players that have been around for years quit dueling rather than deal with FC and the hassles that come with it, its kind of rediculous when an entire room can get disconnected at once.
This isn't meant to offend or insult anyone, but I know some will take it as such. Dueling is my hobby. I enjoy it..wins, losses, ties. Its all good. I duel for the fun of it and don't look to get insulted, but forcing a choice like this is low. I hear there's a D&D 4.0 now, sure many that choose not to conform will find a way to fill their freetime.
Alright, that's it for me and my well meant cautioning to the admininstrators and staff. I hope you all see my p.o.v and understand the concerns I've listed above. I'm sure some of you considered them, but decisions shouldn't be made without an understanding of how the players with only a voice will react.
Life is 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will. 5% pleasure, 50% pain. That's 100% reason to remember the name.
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DUEL Psly FTA
- Seasoned Adventurer
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Same ol' place
4 months. 15 duels, and two of those on a sub shift. Average of less than one duel per week.Imp's shift 9-12
Covered for Roman
TinyTopaz .def. Gnort Dragoon, 5-1 in 7 rounds
TinyTopaz .def. Garoxin, 5-1 in 6 rounds
Imp's shift 11/09/06
Not much happening, but the brawl was fun!
K Tarkenstone .def. CorwinMithmellon, 4.5-3.5 in 15 rounds
K Tarkenstone .def. DamienRavnos, 5-1 in 7 rounds
Imp's shift 11/16/06
Nothing to report. There was no one in the room so when they said they needed a caller for the tour I said yes.
Thursday 7th, 9-12
Nothing happened.
Imp's shift 12/14/06 9-12
EkthbjIgke .def. Aya Hayashibara, 5-4 in 9 rounds
EkthbjIgke .def. Liena Hope, 5-2 in 8 rounds
Thursday 21/12/06 9-12
Was there. No duels.
11-12:45 1/5/07
I was there.
No duels.
Vote for Imp!
Imp's shift, 1/18/07 11-1
yeay! I called duels!
JohnathanHavoick .def. Lorddarylkyle, 5-4 in 9 rounds
Cassius Maxim .def. ChrisGraziano07, 5-1 in 8 rounds
Grayson MacLeod .def. Random McChanse, 5-3 in 6 rounds
Goldglo .def. Random McChanse, 5.5-3.5 in 11 rounds
Imp's shift, 1/25/07 9-11
Skyler CJ .def. Elijah Solariss, 5-1.5 in 7 rounds
Joranthiel .def. Val Demure, 5-4 in 8 rounds
RabMallet .def. Val Demure, 6-5 in 6 rounds
Elbynknyght .def. AnubisKaro, 5-3 in 12 rounds
Imp's shift 9-11, 02/01/07
RabMallet .def. ThexFrizzleFry, 5-0 in 6 rounds
I know I've been out of the game for a bit, but in all honesty, why should the player base we have now care whether or not DoS moves to the RDI on Thursday? They don't show up to the room we've got as it is.
::EDIT:: My apologies. . .it's six in the morning, and my math is a little off. 10 reported weeks at 15 duels is 1.5 duels per shift.
Remember, in the end, it's all moo.
Meaning it all gets munched on, spit up, chewed on for a while, swallowed, spit up again, chewed on some more, swallowed again, and dumped on the ground in big steaming piles.
Meaning it all gets munched on, spit up, chewed on for a while, swallowed, spit up again, chewed on some more, swallowed again, and dumped on the ground in big steaming piles.
While this may be true, the point being missed is that since the days of AOL, the Dueling Forum has basically been an offshoot of the RDI and we've constantly been drawing on their player base to increase our numbers. As it stands right now, we struggle immensely with bringing in any type of new players to ROH, however the RDI sees their numbers grow daily. It is in our best, and long term interest, to expose these players to our setting and environment. It's only natural that we expose them to our most popular game. As Pslyder has pointed out, Thursdays have been dismal for the past few months and we're wasting the talents of a very good caller in the process.Its one thing to keep bridging that gap between RDI and RoH, but we have two completely different player bases.
The admin team is always concerned with our long term survivability and it's simply not feasible to put decisions like this to a popular vote before implementation. At this point, we see our best chance for growth and survival lying in the player base of the RDI and in order to sell our product to that community, we need to maintain a constant presence.
When we implement our own FC and move away from the RDI hopefully players will follow. If they don't, I won't regret this decision because it's a gamble we're willing to take to ensure our long-term health. However, with that said, we'd LOVE to hear more ideas for growth because a lot of us are at our wits end. I keep hearing about how flashchat is bad and will drive players away, and how hosting in the RDI is bad and will drive players away but I've yet to hear any constructive ideas on how to increase participation.
I'm not sure who was around when we moved from AOL to the web, but the same arguments were made at that time, but the admin team moved forward with the change and I firmly believe the correct decision was made. The resistance to change will always be there, no matter what the change we're trying to implement.
This is also a good way to begin acclimating players to the FC environment. This is a good way for us to hear feedback so we can correct some of the issues our players don't like before we go live with FC on our site. This is the next step in that gradual process.
And just to hit on a few points made specifically about FC.
I've seen this on more than one occasion with AIM as well.its kind of rediculous when an entire room can get disconnected at once.
Is that really any different than downloading an AIM client and creating a name just to duel with? And yes, there are some people without AIM clients on their boxes. I know two old timers off the top of my head that would love to duel again but don't want to go through that hassle.To use the flash chat you have to register with the RDI board. There are duelists on the standings that are not registered on the RoH boards, sure they register eventually if they start challenging and what not. But what about the people who just duel for the fun of it? You're asking them to create accounts they will never really use outside of dueling.
AIM is just the beast we're used to.
Please tell me what member of the admin team has been talking like this. To my knowledge, we're all pretty open to suggestions and are doing our best to keep this game operational. It's hard for us to balance the need to keep our current players energized (as the Tour and tournaments do) and keep the day to day games running, vice reaching out to new communities and players to increase our numbers.but you're constantly saying "you don't get any input, we're moving to FC and you had better get used to it fast." and "you want to argue? Tough, you're just negative, either conform or you hate the duels anyway"
We'd love to hear suggestions!
Not to sound like a broken record, but I'll sum up:
We should have given a week or so heads up, but that's a mistake we made.
Thursdays are that bad.
This was discussed at length by the admin team.
This is a decision based on the long term goals the admin team have which should also show short-term positive results.
I came on 3 years ago, solely as a TDL duellist. I enjoyed it immensely. Since then, I've ventured into RoH and thoroughly enjoyed the community, the characters, and the goings-on.
But since that first TDL season, both TDL and RoH has noticably lost traffic, characters, and the energy that made the whole experience great for me. Granted, I need little to entertain me, but the range and depth of drama, stories, characters, and ridiculousness was fantastic.
I miss that. The different people (not just same people with different characters). The randomness. The whispering SLs in the corners that used to annoy me but now I think they added flavor and intrigue to the room.
Some have said that RP communities ebb and flow that way. But at this point, I'm think that I'd prefer going to the vibrant RDI community without any duelling at all, than continue to wander in to an open arena and find no one there. (no offense at all, Imp)
Onward and upward. It can only get better, methinks. But I'm new enough to have little pinings for the way things were, or what came before, or whatnot.
(Of course, this post wandered into the way the transition was handled more than rationale for FC, but ah well.)
But since that first TDL season, both TDL and RoH has noticably lost traffic, characters, and the energy that made the whole experience great for me. Granted, I need little to entertain me, but the range and depth of drama, stories, characters, and ridiculousness was fantastic.
I miss that. The different people (not just same people with different characters). The randomness. The whispering SLs in the corners that used to annoy me but now I think they added flavor and intrigue to the room.
Some have said that RP communities ebb and flow that way. But at this point, I'm think that I'd prefer going to the vibrant RDI community without any duelling at all, than continue to wander in to an open arena and find no one there. (no offense at all, Imp)
Onward and upward. It can only get better, methinks. But I'm new enough to have little pinings for the way things were, or what came before, or whatnot.
(Of course, this post wandered into the way the transition was handled more than rationale for FC, but ah well.)
Where was the fair warning to the populace on this move? The discussion to take it over there on Thursdays? Heck, in RL you get a two week notice when you're fired. The admins just decide to take it over there without consulting the players?
Billy addressed this already, but I'll weigh in, too. I don't think it's entirely fair to compare moving a shift to FC to being fired from a real-life job; the two don't equate in my mind. That said, point taken. I made the same mistake when moving the Monday night DoF shift to the RDI and looking back at the post I made, I gave something like 12 hours of notice since we got to start up Oct. 30 instead of the following week like I thought it'd be. More notice would have been good then, and likely good in this case as well.
As far as consulting the players, I agree with Billy in that I don't think this is a `popular vote' type of decision. I made the call to move the DoF shift; Billy made the call to move the DoS one after more discussion than I had when I did it, and Topaz has decided that DoM won't move a shift over there. We're all doing what we think best for the duels, and the specific sports we're responsible for.
I understand the DoF on monday was moved over there to low participation, but Thursdays cannot be that bad, can they?
Psly showed the Thursday night deadness already. To possibly put a bright spin on things, Monday night DoF was deader than the Thursday night DoS when I moved the shift over. Now, Mondays are the busiest night, with Tuesday and Wednesday lagging behind rather pathetically (we're lucky to have 4 duels between the two nights combined). Rissa's called 1 duel on Tuesday the past 2 weeks. I bet you see a large jump in Thursday night DoS participation, and I'll also bet a lot of it comes from new(er) players.
True this is a large game with many players, but to just up and move without shooting a note to the regular players is a little underhanded. Even Des gave the DoF people a few weeks notice saying "hey..we'll be over here on this date just to let you know." But to just announce something like this out of the blue? Where's the responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on thursdays looking for duels and are denied?
I think I covered most of this above. As far as "responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on Thursdays looking for duels are are denied," nobody's denying anbody anything. The duels (DoS, specifically, in this case) are still happening, and they're even happening in the Arena. Players are just accessing the game via a different medium.
Its one thing to keep bridging that gap between RDI and RoH, but we have two completely different player bases. This is asking some to go out of their way to register on the RDI just so they can duel and RP. To use the flash chat you have to register with the RDI board. There are duelists on the standings who are not registered on the RoH boards, sure they register eventually if they start challenging and what not. But what about the people who just duel for the fun of it? You're asking them to create accounts they will never really use outside of dueling.
Yes, registering a character over at the RDI is an extra step. But, really, it's the same argument I've been hearing used against the RDI folk turned around. Folks here, in the past, have complained that the RDI folk won't do something really easy like download AIM to duel and just exist in their FlashChat land and refuse to move out of it and that's lame of them (disclaimer: I realize that line of thinking is a very broad generalization and, while true for some RDI players, it should not reflect upon the entire RDI playerbase as a whole). Well, if we take the same attitude (essentially, "why should I go register elsewhere when I can duel and play in my comfort zone?"), nobody wins.
Remember, we're the ones who need the players. We're the ones encroaching on the RDI's territory. We should be grateful that they're willing to let us in there and potentially siphon their playerbase to help keep these games alive.
I understand this is meant to be good for our player base, but I see one catch. You'll get mostly RDI folks dueling on Thursday, maybe a handful of RoH people. And the RoH players who choose not to conform will shift their regular days to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I also understand this is a possible ploy to get RoH folks to adjust to playing in FC with the new RoH, but the main argument in this long rant is. The players were not given any warning, no chance to give the admins any feedback on if this is something they want, and was this move discussed by all of the administrators and supervisors, or just a random choice because on the surface the move sounds good for RoH as a whole?
There's no "ploy" at work. We're expanding the game(s) to a new playerbase, and going to their preferred medium (Flashchat, on their site) to do it. This wasn't a decision made in the dark or randomly.
I don't mean to come of as a killjoy or negative, but I'm just really curious how this decision was made without any questions given to the players. And one last thing, was this choice made out of a desire to see a short term increase in duels rather than a long term? The Tour caused this, a nice jump in duels, but then everything died down to how it was before. True the DoF at the RDI is busy when its there, but has than done anything to increase numbers at the other nights? No. The RDI folks duel when its at the FC, but only a handful seem to come to our rooms. We're being asked to go over there, yet how many of them come here? Not very many. DoS/M/F is our game, we've been good sports and gone over there to show them our world and have drawn in some new blood, but that blood has stayed at the RDI for the most part and doesn't want to fully come into our realm.
The duels are "ours" in a sense, yes. We want them to flourish, and thrive. But they are "everyone's" in the respect that "we" aren't enough to sustain them. "We" need new players. "We" are being allowed to go into someplace different to try and attract those players. "We" could be told to pack up and go home and not bother the RDI again. But that's not happening. "We" are being welcomed. "We" should appreciate that immensely.
And you're right. Room counts in DoF have not gone up on Tuesdays/Wednesdays. But new players have come over. Are they consistent? No. But they are there.
The point of that little rant is simply, we shouldn't make choices based on quick results. I hold nothing against FlashChat, but you're constantly saying "you don't get any input, we're moving to FC and you had better get used to it fast." and "you want to argue? Tough, you're just negative, either conform or you hate the duels anyway" This type of stuff makes doubters feel like preaching to the choir and when you want their opion they just go "Eh, you'll do what you want, what does our opinion matter?"
Opinions matter, but as it was said before, it's not a popular vote thing. The admin crew are doing what they feel is best for the forum and for the games we love. Not everyone will agree with the chosen path (no matter what the chosen path is).
I shouldn't have to say anything more. Decisions such as this, that are made out of the blue without a reaction test from the player base usually come from a need for quick results, not any long term plan with a set goal. You want to see an increase in sport participation? Do NOT put an ultimatum on the players to either go here, or don't duel at all.
Long-term plans do exist. I leave it to Amal to share them with the community.
Yes, I'm registered at the RDI as are my alts, so don't bother shooting back with that. I play at both, but my loyalty lies with RoH. It takes time for people to adjust, and a move to the RDI without proper warning is the same as giving Thursday regulars an eviction notice.
Psly's already shown that "regulars" on Thursday night are few. Either way, it's not an eviction notice. An eviction notice would be "Thursday nights are shutting down entirely." This is a move in venue, nothing more.
We have a large player base, the move to FC and the RDI needs to be gradual, it can't be pushed into a matter of months. When you move to a new house, the old isn't sold immediately, it can sit there for as long as a couple years before being bought by someone new. While we're all having to find new rooms at the new "house" what about the old that's still just sitting there? What becomes of it? I can tell you what might happen. You'll create dual forums. You'll have duels happening in one place, while the same sport is taking place at the old house. Two standings reports, two shifts at the same time.
At least in DoF's case, and I will presume to speak for Billy here, in DoS' too, there will not be 2 simultaneous shifts where one's in the RDI and one's on AIM. That wouldn't be making the best use of our limited calling resources, and would set up a structure where we're essentially forcing the playerbase to fragment when the goal is to do the opposite. We cannot afford to wait a couple of years for change. Most everyone realizes and agrees that things need to improve. We need not to be rash, and we need to make decisions wisely. But we also need to make them relatively quickly.
True, the one will have more life to it, but the other will push on stubbornly because it holds onto the memories made. And if the dual forum doesn't happen...you'll see players that have been around for years quit dueling rather than deal with FC and the hassles that come with it, its kind of rediculous when an entire room can get disconnected at once.
If AOL/AIM is acting up (which it has done in the past), dueling doesn't happen on that night because people can't get into rooms, can't stay online, etc. FlashChat is no less unstable than AOL/AIM.
This isn't meant to offend or insult anyone, but I know some will take it as such. Dueling is my hobby. I enjoy it..wins, losses, ties. Its all good. I duel for the fun of it and don't look to get insulted, but forcing a choice like this is low. I hear there's a D&D 4.0 now, sure many that choose not to conform will find a way to fill their freetime.
As a point of clarity, AD&D 4.0 is currently a theory. It's not released. 3.5 is still the latest version. I disagree that we're "forcing a choice," but I see how it could be interpreted as such. A choice didn't exist before; it was AIM/AOL or nothing. Now, for one night, a choice does exist, the choice to duel over in the RDI or not. Though, really, it's a very similar choice to all the other nights - duel on AOL/AIM, or not.
Alright, that's it for me and my well meant cautioning to the admininstrators and staff. I hope you all see my p.o.v and understand the concerns I've listed above. I'm sure some of you considered them, but decisions shouldn't be made without an understanding of how the players with only a voice will react.
Totally hear where you're coming from, and of course, people will react as they do. Unfortunately, not everyone will be pleased with whatever decision(s) are made.
As always, and as Billy said, suggestions, comments, and help are always welcome.
--Matt
Billy addressed this already, but I'll weigh in, too. I don't think it's entirely fair to compare moving a shift to FC to being fired from a real-life job; the two don't equate in my mind. That said, point taken. I made the same mistake when moving the Monday night DoF shift to the RDI and looking back at the post I made, I gave something like 12 hours of notice since we got to start up Oct. 30 instead of the following week like I thought it'd be. More notice would have been good then, and likely good in this case as well.
As far as consulting the players, I agree with Billy in that I don't think this is a `popular vote' type of decision. I made the call to move the DoF shift; Billy made the call to move the DoS one after more discussion than I had when I did it, and Topaz has decided that DoM won't move a shift over there. We're all doing what we think best for the duels, and the specific sports we're responsible for.
I understand the DoF on monday was moved over there to low participation, but Thursdays cannot be that bad, can they?
Psly showed the Thursday night deadness already. To possibly put a bright spin on things, Monday night DoF was deader than the Thursday night DoS when I moved the shift over. Now, Mondays are the busiest night, with Tuesday and Wednesday lagging behind rather pathetically (we're lucky to have 4 duels between the two nights combined). Rissa's called 1 duel on Tuesday the past 2 weeks. I bet you see a large jump in Thursday night DoS participation, and I'll also bet a lot of it comes from new(er) players.
True this is a large game with many players, but to just up and move without shooting a note to the regular players is a little underhanded. Even Des gave the DoF people a few weeks notice saying "hey..we'll be over here on this date just to let you know." But to just announce something like this out of the blue? Where's the responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on thursdays looking for duels and are denied?
I think I covered most of this above. As far as "responsibility to the players that come to the DoS on Thursdays looking for duels are are denied," nobody's denying anbody anything. The duels (DoS, specifically, in this case) are still happening, and they're even happening in the Arena. Players are just accessing the game via a different medium.
Its one thing to keep bridging that gap between RDI and RoH, but we have two completely different player bases. This is asking some to go out of their way to register on the RDI just so they can duel and RP. To use the flash chat you have to register with the RDI board. There are duelists on the standings who are not registered on the RoH boards, sure they register eventually if they start challenging and what not. But what about the people who just duel for the fun of it? You're asking them to create accounts they will never really use outside of dueling.
Yes, registering a character over at the RDI is an extra step. But, really, it's the same argument I've been hearing used against the RDI folk turned around. Folks here, in the past, have complained that the RDI folk won't do something really easy like download AIM to duel and just exist in their FlashChat land and refuse to move out of it and that's lame of them (disclaimer: I realize that line of thinking is a very broad generalization and, while true for some RDI players, it should not reflect upon the entire RDI playerbase as a whole). Well, if we take the same attitude (essentially, "why should I go register elsewhere when I can duel and play in my comfort zone?"), nobody wins.
Remember, we're the ones who need the players. We're the ones encroaching on the RDI's territory. We should be grateful that they're willing to let us in there and potentially siphon their playerbase to help keep these games alive.
I understand this is meant to be good for our player base, but I see one catch. You'll get mostly RDI folks dueling on Thursday, maybe a handful of RoH people. And the RoH players who choose not to conform will shift their regular days to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I also understand this is a possible ploy to get RoH folks to adjust to playing in FC with the new RoH, but the main argument in this long rant is. The players were not given any warning, no chance to give the admins any feedback on if this is something they want, and was this move discussed by all of the administrators and supervisors, or just a random choice because on the surface the move sounds good for RoH as a whole?
There's no "ploy" at work. We're expanding the game(s) to a new playerbase, and going to their preferred medium (Flashchat, on their site) to do it. This wasn't a decision made in the dark or randomly.
I don't mean to come of as a killjoy or negative, but I'm just really curious how this decision was made without any questions given to the players. And one last thing, was this choice made out of a desire to see a short term increase in duels rather than a long term? The Tour caused this, a nice jump in duels, but then everything died down to how it was before. True the DoF at the RDI is busy when its there, but has than done anything to increase numbers at the other nights? No. The RDI folks duel when its at the FC, but only a handful seem to come to our rooms. We're being asked to go over there, yet how many of them come here? Not very many. DoS/M/F is our game, we've been good sports and gone over there to show them our world and have drawn in some new blood, but that blood has stayed at the RDI for the most part and doesn't want to fully come into our realm.
The duels are "ours" in a sense, yes. We want them to flourish, and thrive. But they are "everyone's" in the respect that "we" aren't enough to sustain them. "We" need new players. "We" are being allowed to go into someplace different to try and attract those players. "We" could be told to pack up and go home and not bother the RDI again. But that's not happening. "We" are being welcomed. "We" should appreciate that immensely.
And you're right. Room counts in DoF have not gone up on Tuesdays/Wednesdays. But new players have come over. Are they consistent? No. But they are there.
The point of that little rant is simply, we shouldn't make choices based on quick results. I hold nothing against FlashChat, but you're constantly saying "you don't get any input, we're moving to FC and you had better get used to it fast." and "you want to argue? Tough, you're just negative, either conform or you hate the duels anyway" This type of stuff makes doubters feel like preaching to the choir and when you want their opion they just go "Eh, you'll do what you want, what does our opinion matter?"
Opinions matter, but as it was said before, it's not a popular vote thing. The admin crew are doing what they feel is best for the forum and for the games we love. Not everyone will agree with the chosen path (no matter what the chosen path is).
I shouldn't have to say anything more. Decisions such as this, that are made out of the blue without a reaction test from the player base usually come from a need for quick results, not any long term plan with a set goal. You want to see an increase in sport participation? Do NOT put an ultimatum on the players to either go here, or don't duel at all.
Long-term plans do exist. I leave it to Amal to share them with the community.
Yes, I'm registered at the RDI as are my alts, so don't bother shooting back with that. I play at both, but my loyalty lies with RoH. It takes time for people to adjust, and a move to the RDI without proper warning is the same as giving Thursday regulars an eviction notice.
Psly's already shown that "regulars" on Thursday night are few. Either way, it's not an eviction notice. An eviction notice would be "Thursday nights are shutting down entirely." This is a move in venue, nothing more.
We have a large player base, the move to FC and the RDI needs to be gradual, it can't be pushed into a matter of months. When you move to a new house, the old isn't sold immediately, it can sit there for as long as a couple years before being bought by someone new. While we're all having to find new rooms at the new "house" what about the old that's still just sitting there? What becomes of it? I can tell you what might happen. You'll create dual forums. You'll have duels happening in one place, while the same sport is taking place at the old house. Two standings reports, two shifts at the same time.
At least in DoF's case, and I will presume to speak for Billy here, in DoS' too, there will not be 2 simultaneous shifts where one's in the RDI and one's on AIM. That wouldn't be making the best use of our limited calling resources, and would set up a structure where we're essentially forcing the playerbase to fragment when the goal is to do the opposite. We cannot afford to wait a couple of years for change. Most everyone realizes and agrees that things need to improve. We need not to be rash, and we need to make decisions wisely. But we also need to make them relatively quickly.
True, the one will have more life to it, but the other will push on stubbornly because it holds onto the memories made. And if the dual forum doesn't happen...you'll see players that have been around for years quit dueling rather than deal with FC and the hassles that come with it, its kind of rediculous when an entire room can get disconnected at once.
If AOL/AIM is acting up (which it has done in the past), dueling doesn't happen on that night because people can't get into rooms, can't stay online, etc. FlashChat is no less unstable than AOL/AIM.
This isn't meant to offend or insult anyone, but I know some will take it as such. Dueling is my hobby. I enjoy it..wins, losses, ties. Its all good. I duel for the fun of it and don't look to get insulted, but forcing a choice like this is low. I hear there's a D&D 4.0 now, sure many that choose not to conform will find a way to fill their freetime.
As a point of clarity, AD&D 4.0 is currently a theory. It's not released. 3.5 is still the latest version. I disagree that we're "forcing a choice," but I see how it could be interpreted as such. A choice didn't exist before; it was AIM/AOL or nothing. Now, for one night, a choice does exist, the choice to duel over in the RDI or not. Though, really, it's a very similar choice to all the other nights - duel on AOL/AIM, or not.
Alright, that's it for me and my well meant cautioning to the admininstrators and staff. I hope you all see my p.o.v and understand the concerns I've listed above. I'm sure some of you considered them, but decisions shouldn't be made without an understanding of how the players with only a voice will react.
Totally hear where you're coming from, and of course, people will react as they do. Unfortunately, not everyone will be pleased with whatever decision(s) are made.
As always, and as Billy said, suggestions, comments, and help are always welcome.
--Matt
"If you are thinking a year from now, sow seed. If you are thinking ten years from now, plant a tree. If you are thinking one-hundred years from now, educate the people."
--Kuan Tzu, 5'th century Chinese poet
--Kuan Tzu, 5'th century Chinese poet
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Scorched Druid
- Adventurer
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- Posts: 92
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:07 pm
- Location: Currently either in a room above the Outback or his hut.
Each of you has asked about if there are concerns, voice them. That is what I did with this post. I spoke to some other players that had similar aprehension to my own and looked at what worries them and myself. The best analogy I could actually think of is this.
RoH has been an independant body for 15 some odd years. We broke away from RDI, got married, and are now trying to move back in with mom and dad. If briefly. But what about the possibility RoH can't get back on its feet? Will our game remain in RDI rooms indefinitly?
I pointed out my main concern with Do/S/F nights at the RDI...we go over there and pitch our game, see nice numbers when we're THERE. But very few of them actually come to our normal rooms. That clearly says, "hey, its a fun game, but we won't go out of our way to play it. Keep coming here and we'll use you."
Yes, I understand RDI is taking the bigger risk because we need them. They don't need us. I also understand that right now RoH is a dying horse limping along, which is everyone's concern. Not just the administrative staff.
In my first post, I voiced my own concerns and some others that I heard because someone had to. I don't like playing devil's advocate, but someone has to. Someone always has to. As for the comment about always hearing gripes but not any ways to make the corrections. That's simple, you're getting folks who just want to bitch because they can.
The game as a whole needs revitalized. Not just the numbers. We have low room counts now because the game has become stagnant for the current community. Same fights, same challenges for the same reasons, OOC bickering over things that happened years ago. True having the duels at the RDI two nights a week garners more interest there, but it does nothing to salvage the current community. Renew interest for the current community and numbers will follow. The only question is, how to renew it?
I've downloaded flyers and posted them around the main campus here, I've told my friends about this game, I have mentions of this place on myspace, MSN, Yahoo. You know what response I've gotten? "This looks like a game for losers. Where's the graphics? Where's the explosions?" We're pitching a game to a generation used to WoW, Guild Wars, Xbox, PS2, and all other manner of things. A generation lacking in imagination.
That is one thing against us in getting better numbers. We all play the game and still think its fun and cool, any new blood that hasn't played a text based RPG or table top isn't going to have a lot of interest in this. I know this has already been brought up before and is a moot point already realized by all of us, but it leads into my next point.
If we want to get interest out there in our free game, we need to put up banners on other sites. If even for just a month or two. Lets try and get banners on Wizard of the Coast sites, Clandestine, Age of Chaos (based on the Robert Jordan series Wheel of Time), push our product to more sites than just RDI.
I know many of you already have tried, or put up a mentioning of our game. But a mention just won't cut it. As a general rule, people like an image, a visualization to catch their eye. You do a powerpoint or slide presentation, what is the biggest thing to put your point forward? A visual that doesn't put too much strain on the eyes and shows what you want your audience to see.
I've brought up "why's" and "how's" ,some I realize will be seen as unrealistic. But they are still options to take. The survival of our game is everyone's concern, but most will remain quiet because, they feel, most of the admins will do what they want to do regardless of public sentiment.
Right there is the hinderance to any changes brought up.
I've made friends here at RoH, met a lot of really cool people and this place has even helped my creativity. RoH has given me more than I have yet to give back, I'll fight for this place because its been good to me. I'm in college and not afraid to say that priority wise, RoH is in my Top 5. School, Friends, Family, Money, and Me Time. RoH is where I come when I want to wind down and relax. Duel and RP. This is where I come to escape RL and leave it a million miles away. I still play video games, see movies, and date. But I come here when I need time to myself to do something I've come to have fun doing.
And yes I went off topic, but I responded to your comments as best I could. It may be arrogant, but I'm trying to speak for the players that feel they'll get blacklisted for speaking out. Which has been known to happen.
RoH has been an independant body for 15 some odd years. We broke away from RDI, got married, and are now trying to move back in with mom and dad. If briefly. But what about the possibility RoH can't get back on its feet? Will our game remain in RDI rooms indefinitly?
I pointed out my main concern with Do/S/F nights at the RDI...we go over there and pitch our game, see nice numbers when we're THERE. But very few of them actually come to our normal rooms. That clearly says, "hey, its a fun game, but we won't go out of our way to play it. Keep coming here and we'll use you."
Yes, I understand RDI is taking the bigger risk because we need them. They don't need us. I also understand that right now RoH is a dying horse limping along, which is everyone's concern. Not just the administrative staff.
In my first post, I voiced my own concerns and some others that I heard because someone had to. I don't like playing devil's advocate, but someone has to. Someone always has to. As for the comment about always hearing gripes but not any ways to make the corrections. That's simple, you're getting folks who just want to bitch because they can.
The game as a whole needs revitalized. Not just the numbers. We have low room counts now because the game has become stagnant for the current community. Same fights, same challenges for the same reasons, OOC bickering over things that happened years ago. True having the duels at the RDI two nights a week garners more interest there, but it does nothing to salvage the current community. Renew interest for the current community and numbers will follow. The only question is, how to renew it?
I've downloaded flyers and posted them around the main campus here, I've told my friends about this game, I have mentions of this place on myspace, MSN, Yahoo. You know what response I've gotten? "This looks like a game for losers. Where's the graphics? Where's the explosions?" We're pitching a game to a generation used to WoW, Guild Wars, Xbox, PS2, and all other manner of things. A generation lacking in imagination.
That is one thing against us in getting better numbers. We all play the game and still think its fun and cool, any new blood that hasn't played a text based RPG or table top isn't going to have a lot of interest in this. I know this has already been brought up before and is a moot point already realized by all of us, but it leads into my next point.
If we want to get interest out there in our free game, we need to put up banners on other sites. If even for just a month or two. Lets try and get banners on Wizard of the Coast sites, Clandestine, Age of Chaos (based on the Robert Jordan series Wheel of Time), push our product to more sites than just RDI.
I know many of you already have tried, or put up a mentioning of our game. But a mention just won't cut it. As a general rule, people like an image, a visualization to catch their eye. You do a powerpoint or slide presentation, what is the biggest thing to put your point forward? A visual that doesn't put too much strain on the eyes and shows what you want your audience to see.
I've brought up "why's" and "how's" ,some I realize will be seen as unrealistic. But they are still options to take. The survival of our game is everyone's concern, but most will remain quiet because, they feel, most of the admins will do what they want to do regardless of public sentiment.
Right there is the hinderance to any changes brought up.
I've made friends here at RoH, met a lot of really cool people and this place has even helped my creativity. RoH has given me more than I have yet to give back, I'll fight for this place because its been good to me. I'm in college and not afraid to say that priority wise, RoH is in my Top 5. School, Friends, Family, Money, and Me Time. RoH is where I come when I want to wind down and relax. Duel and RP. This is where I come to escape RL and leave it a million miles away. I still play video games, see movies, and date. But I come here when I need time to myself to do something I've come to have fun doing.
And yes I went off topic, but I responded to your comments as best I could. It may be arrogant, but I'm trying to speak for the players that feel they'll get blacklisted for speaking out. Which has been known to happen.
Life is 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will. 5% pleasure, 50% pain. That's 100% reason to remember the name.
I'm not attempting to be argumentative at all, however I want to address some of your points.
We're not moving back in with mom and dad, nor are we living in a fantasy where we think having our duels in the RDI for two nights a week will solve our woes. However, this is the best type of advertising we have. Rakeesh drew a handful of new players to our site by holding dueling events on a MUD he played.
It's very difficult to achieve that with a game that, at its core, has been the same for 15 years and players that have been here for eight or more. The tour, the King of the Ring, the All Ranks Tournaments helps but they are still only short term solutions. The only true way to do this, I think, is to bring in fresh faces, fresh characters and fresh stories. Again, if there are other ways, please bring them up. The Tour was great. I have an idea coming for DoS next month that will help. But these are still only short term solutions.
But I can't force someone to enjoy a game again. That has to come through their interactions with the characters and the players here.
We have advertised on some of those bigger gaming sites, however that does cost money which is not an asset ROH has. Amal funded and created a banner and artwork for these but I'm not sure how much traffic they generated. I agree that we need to spread the word to more than just the RDI and the FC is going to give us something more to offer potential players. However, right now, the RDI is our best opportunity.
I appreciate you opening this type of dialogue up, Druid, since there's no way for us to gauge the opinions of players unless they speak up. We can't read minds.
Ok, I'll stop trolling in a little bit.
We haven't been independent until recently. While we were the dueling forum on AOL, we may have had our own coordinators and rules, however we were always a subset of the RDI, which was a subset of AOL. And, as such, we benefited from the advertisement links placed on the RDI page and the gaming forum/PC/etc page. It wasn't until three years ago, when we moved to the web, that we became independent and began to see our trouble with advertising.RoH has been an independant body for 15 some odd years.
We're not moving back in with mom and dad, nor are we living in a fantasy where we think having our duels in the RDI for two nights a week will solve our woes. However, this is the best type of advertising we have. Rakeesh drew a handful of new players to our site by holding dueling events on a MUD he played.
That's a concern I've always had. But, in the short time we've had DoF over there, we've had some very good players come over and play in our rooms. Whyeree, Jewell, Lydia and Gav, to name a few. Whyeree alone makes me think that we've had success with this type of campaign. And as I said before, hopefully DoS will hook in more players and when we move completely to our own FC, they'll follow.e go over there and pitch our game, see nice numbers when we're THERE. But very few of them actually come to our normal rooms. T
The game as a whole needs revitalized.
It's very difficult to achieve that with a game that, at its core, has been the same for 15 years and players that have been here for eight or more. The tour, the King of the Ring, the All Ranks Tournaments helps but they are still only short term solutions. The only true way to do this, I think, is to bring in fresh faces, fresh characters and fresh stories. Again, if there are other ways, please bring them up. The Tour was great. I have an idea coming for DoS next month that will help. But these are still only short term solutions.
But I can't force someone to enjoy a game again. That has to come through their interactions with the characters and the players here.
This is definitely a step in the right direction and I'm very happy to see this happening. Hopefully more of us will follow this lead. Aside from getting people to actually experience the game, word of mouth is our best bet.I've downloaded flyers and posted them around the main campus here,
We have advertised on some of those bigger gaming sites, however that does cost money which is not an asset ROH has. Amal funded and created a banner and artwork for these but I'm not sure how much traffic they generated. I agree that we need to spread the word to more than just the RDI and the FC is going to give us something more to offer potential players. However, right now, the RDI is our best opportunity.
I appreciate you opening this type of dialogue up, Druid, since there's no way for us to gauge the opinions of players unless they speak up. We can't read minds.
Ok, I'll stop trolling in a little bit.
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Gnimish Gnimoi
- Adventurer
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:57 am
- Location: Chysana'sal, Shylasa
Hm, lets see if I can put into words some of my concerns.
First off, I'm not going to try to make this about FlashChat. I hate FC, some people hate AIM. That's just something that everyone is going to feel different about I figure.
I've only been back what, about a year now but I'm having just as much fun as ever, I guess I don't see this doom and gloom that I keep hearing about. Maybe because the folks I enjoy playing with are the folks that are around the most or something.
As for the RDI thing...some insane number of years ago when I first came to the RDI, the duels and the Inn were linked. Aside from the occasional "I kut ur hed off with swrd +50, lolol, ur ded" person that wandered into the Inn I always felt like there was a clear connection. I really don't see that anymore. From the way I see it now we're not going over and asking the other half of our community for help, we're going to an entirely different community. I feel that if we were to just up and move the entire thing over to the RDI one day it wouldn't just be a move, we'd basically be abandoning one community in favor of another.
Why is that distinction important? Well, it's hard to fully express it, but I just have this concern that moving our small, somewhat-structured, unique community over to a much larger, very much more free-form community will result in the RoH side getting badly diluted or at least being completely segregated. What Karen said in another thread about her Knights and the City Watch and such is an example of what I'm talking about, I think. Of course, I guess that's not so bad, we're all segregated over here in our own little community anyway. Guess folks will just have to adapt.
As for promoting "the game"...maybe that's the problem. Druid is right, this is an age with games like World of Warcraft, which I play by the way, and competing with that for people's time is just going to end badly of course. But from where I'm sitting this isn't a "gaming community" it's a "Roleplaying Community". I don't come here JUST to play a game, if dueling was ALL there was to be done I wouldn't even bother. There's a lot more to the RoH community, and that's why I also think duel logs are a poor way of determining attendance and participation. In short, I wouldn't present the game, I'd present the community.
Lets see, what else was in my head.
Well, I'll think of more later, I'm sure.
First off, I'm not going to try to make this about FlashChat. I hate FC, some people hate AIM. That's just something that everyone is going to feel different about I figure.
I've only been back what, about a year now but I'm having just as much fun as ever, I guess I don't see this doom and gloom that I keep hearing about. Maybe because the folks I enjoy playing with are the folks that are around the most or something.
As for the RDI thing...some insane number of years ago when I first came to the RDI, the duels and the Inn were linked. Aside from the occasional "I kut ur hed off with swrd +50, lolol, ur ded" person that wandered into the Inn I always felt like there was a clear connection. I really don't see that anymore. From the way I see it now we're not going over and asking the other half of our community for help, we're going to an entirely different community. I feel that if we were to just up and move the entire thing over to the RDI one day it wouldn't just be a move, we'd basically be abandoning one community in favor of another.
Why is that distinction important? Well, it's hard to fully express it, but I just have this concern that moving our small, somewhat-structured, unique community over to a much larger, very much more free-form community will result in the RoH side getting badly diluted or at least being completely segregated. What Karen said in another thread about her Knights and the City Watch and such is an example of what I'm talking about, I think. Of course, I guess that's not so bad, we're all segregated over here in our own little community anyway. Guess folks will just have to adapt.
As for promoting "the game"...maybe that's the problem. Druid is right, this is an age with games like World of Warcraft, which I play by the way, and competing with that for people's time is just going to end badly of course. But from where I'm sitting this isn't a "gaming community" it's a "Roleplaying Community". I don't come here JUST to play a game, if dueling was ALL there was to be done I wouldn't even bother. There's a lot more to the RoH community, and that's why I also think duel logs are a poor way of determining attendance and participation. In short, I wouldn't present the game, I'd present the community.
Lets see, what else was in my head.
Well, I'll think of more later, I'm sure.
Just so you all know.Billy wrote:We have advertised on some of those bigger gaming sites, however that does cost money which is not an asset ROH has. Amal funded, created a banner and artwork for these but I'm not sure how much traffic they generated. I agree that we need to spread the word to more than just the RDI and the FC is going to give us something more to offer potential players. However, right now, the RDI is our best opportunity.
Back last summer I went to rpg.net and paid $25 for 25k impressions for one week. I thought it was a longshot, but I decided to just do it. At the end of the week all I got was this report:
I didn't do it again because $25 a week is not something I'm willing to do for a long term ad.*We finished up your ad run today with about 20% overage:
Impressions:* 31096
*Clicks:* 35 (0.113%)
I think most all of us will agree that we don't want this to happen. I prefer us being our own site and don't want to see us enveloped by the RDI.Why is that distinction important? Well, it's hard to fully express it, but I just have this concern that moving our small, somewhat-structured, unique community over to a much larger, very much more free-form community will result in the RoH side getting badly diluted or at least being completely segregated.
Hosting a dueling night in the RDI is not a permenant move. It is only temporary.
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