Panther’s Claw – Feedback Request

[Goldglo]

Hi folks!

First, I would like to apologize for not holding a Panther’s Claw tournament this cycle without first alerting any of you that one wouldn’t occur; to be transparent, by the time we were done planning DQ 100, it fell through the cracks and we decided to not try and haphazardly wedge it into the schedule. We acknowledge that we should have said something at the time and are sorry for not communicating.

Secondly – and a bit of history here – the Panther’s Claw was originally intended to, much like DoS’ Talon of Redwin which came first – help make the WoL climb easier by granting an extra modifier to the character holding it. While the PC technically can still do that today, the in-game benefit of the additional modifier has diminished with the switch to a No-Loss system from a WoL system.

Given that, we’re looking for some feedback regarding the Panther’s Claw, and what you’d like to see happen with it, such as one or more of the following (these are by no means the only choices, just suggestions to potentially spur conversation):

--Leave things as-is – cyclical tournament with the PC granting the one-modifier bonus to the winner
--Change the in-game benefit of the PC
--Change the way PC is acquired
--Eliminate the PC altogether (replacing it with nothing, or with something else)
--Other?

After reviewing your feedback – if you’re not comfortable posting here, please reach out to myself or Kheldar on Discord – we’ll take all of your suggestions under advisement and decide where to go from there (ideally, starting next cycle which is a month away).

Thank you!

--DoF Staff

[Delahada]

--Leave things as-is – cyclical tournament with the PC granting the one-modifier bonus to the winner

One of these days I'm going to win the Panther's Claw, and I'd personally like it to stay as it has always been. It's a goal. If it changes at all, there's no real point, in my opinion, to holding onto that goal. It took me 10 years to get to Warlord in DoS, even after things went no-loss. It's probably going to take me forever to get to Emerald in DoF too, even with no-loss. I like the incentive of having something to strive for besides high rank. The PC is something that makes the grind less dreary, a more achievable goal for some of us, because I'm sure there are people out there like me whose losses still definitely outnumber the wins and no idea when my luck or skill is going to improve on that.

Edit to Add: I didn't even realize, until now, that I'm at Sapphire. No idea when that happened, lol! Oh well, I still have alts to try to get the PC on!

[Kalamere]

As you say, the PC and the talon both were created in a different time. When the only regular DoF tournament being held was the end of cycle DQ and it took people several cycles (in some cases years) to reach Emerald, the PC was an event those folks could join up and play in. Yes, we had arguments over the years as it became predominantly alts rather than people really struggling with the climb who joined, but the purpose of the thing never changed.

In the lossless world there seems much less a need. Ranking up to Emerald and making oneself eligible to join the DQ, with no risk of ever backsliding on a duel loss, can happen much faster now and just (at least in my mind) eliminates the need. So, for starters, I'd say nuke the tournament. There are still some who need more time for the climb (having just read Sal's post) but I just don't think the volume is there to justify an every cycle tournament.

With that said, does it follow that the claw itself should be retired? Maybe. I mean, there is a part of me that says take the time and focus on something more meaningful to the DoF community. On the other hand there is some historic value to holding it and many (myself included) have a soft spot for history.

If keeping it around, I might like to see it as a sort of RoK or Warden of Outlook (if I'm understanding that one right) kind of thing. Apply ERS style duel rankings to non Emeralds and the top 1 that meets the qualifications of X duels (whatever that may be, may need to scale down from ERS based on actual activity) earns the Claw for the cycle. The person gains the mod advantage that goes with it. Maybe an added boon that any Opal tournament that comes up during the cycle, the PC holder would be invited to participate.

Just my thoughts

[PC]

To jump on Kal's comment. Doing it like RoK / Warden of Overlook could be good and also giving it a secondary benefit.. if the PC is won by someone not of Emerald rank, why not allow them to join the Diamond Quest (and Opal tournaments as Kal said)? If the requirement is 8+ duels / 50% or above winrate, that would be interesting. An Emerald who wins it can then get top seeding in any official DoF tournament throughout the cycle that they hold it.

This would give a reason for all ranks of players to try and gun for it.

[Jake]

Since you're on the subject of possible changes.

It is time to consider renaming it?

[Goldglo]

Not opposed to re-naming, either; all options on the table!

--Matt

[Delahada]

On the other hand there is some historic value to holding it and many (myself included) have a soft spot for history.

This is also one of my reasons for wanting it to stay as is, I'll admit. I do very much like the history and tradition of the PC.

[Harris]

Make it a participation award.

It goes to whoever duels the most with the caveat that they had to have started the cycle below Emerald.

The prize? Twin wins for the next full cycle.

The Ring of Klytus can and does go vacant because there's an 8 duel minimum to meet in the top bracket for non Mages. It also doesn't lend itself to always rewarding good dueling for that same reason. You can go 1-7 and if you're the only person with 8 duels, you win the RoK. A similar scenario is possible if the Panther's Claw adopted the same method.

The Warden title in DoS improved on the RoK by implementing a 50% win rate minimum, but everyone is eligible to win it, and odds tend to lean toward Warlords and higher. If the Panther's Claw is to retain the function of being something for lower ranks I don't think this system works consistently enough either.

Just break it down to basics. The goal should still be to make Emerald because Emerald is forever now. There's no backsliding. Once you hit Emerald you can challenge for Opals and enter Diamond Quests for the next decade. There's no reason to skip around it and offer Opal grants or entrance to the Diamond Quest. All of that is inherent to being an Emerald.

In a no loss system twin wins are a much better boon than a bonus mod if the focus is getting to Emerald. It's also general enough that if a duelist started the cycle as Glass, made Emerald, then won the PC, the twin wins would still be useful. Also, no losses means fighters aren't beholden to maintaining a winning percentage during regulation anyway, so why implement a system for lower ranks that does require one? I think at this point simplicity is beneficial. I would also agree with renaming it if the criteria goes through a major overhaul.

[Gloria Blaze]

I love history in dueling. IC and OOC. Names are important to me. However, changing the benefit is understandable.

[PrlUnicorn]

I love history in dueling. IC and OOC. Names are important to me. However, changing the benefit is understandable.

I'll echo what Gloria and Kal said regarding names and history. Those things are important to me as well. Good suggestions for benefit changes have already been made.

I like having separate tournaments for the lower rank prizes. However, it seems to be easier on the officials to organize one overall tournament per cycle. The only issue I see is needing to choose what character is taking part in that large scale tournament.

As a side note, it seems unfair to change the name "Panther's Claw" when the name was chosen to honor the founder of the sport. To me, it would be like Matt permanently retiring and, some time down the road, someone suggesting that anything referring to him be removed. The contributions of players and characters are important. Allowing them to be diminished in some way or removed can have long term effects like history being remembered wrong or things not being passed down that should be. That's a worm can waiting to be opened.

[Jake]

The Talon of Redwin, which is the model the Panther's Claw was based on, was created as a means to promote/reward lower ranked duelers. The model of the event is a single elim tourney. (Sometimes it wasn't run as a single elim tourney, but it was supposed be that format per the creator.)

The Panther's Claw borrows that model.

If we adopted something like the Ring of Klytus model, where it's awarded based on performance through the cycle (vice performance in a tourney), then I think it's entirely appropriate to come up with a new name for the award. It doesn't eliminate the history of the Panther's Claw. The winners/holders of the Panther's Claw earned it by virtue of a tourney performance.

Different mechanic for awarding the prize, different name to distinguish it. Plus it's an opportunity to recognize someone else (should it be based on a character) that has contributed to the community.

[PC]

Lilith's Fang. 'cus she won 4 DQ's back to back.

[Kalamere]

As a side note, it seems unfair to change the name "Panther's Claw" when the name was chosen to honor the founder of the sport. To me, it would be like Matt permanently retiring and, some time down the road, someone suggesting that anything referring to him be removed.

I actually can see the logic of renaming if the character of thing were to change entirely. It's got nothing to do with wiping Panth from the records and the history of the Panther's Clas and all it's holders would continue to sit on the DoF history and titles page of the website.

What it is, and why I see the logic, is recognition that the character of the thing has changed. The PC is awarded to an undercard tournament winner. If there is no longer an undercard tournament, then does it make sense to completely repurpose the name? Possibly not.

I think in the end what we're proposing is to entirely ditch what we know as the PC today and replace it with something new. My liking of history aside, I think that makes sense in the lossless environment we're in today.

[JewellRavenlock]

Fistmelda's Tooth!

[Mallory]

Fistmelda's Tooth!

Fistmelda's Tooth Tusk

I've only gotten one character up to Emerald and haven't been looking to grind anyone else up to that rank, so I don't have strong feelings about that; but if y'all decide to change the prize (while still keeping the PC histories page intact, of course), and there are people like Sal who want a shot at holding it, would you be open to holding a final PC tournament to give people that chance?