DoF's Other F Word

[Harris]

The entire idea of any modifier is generally to make something better. Defense, at the base level, scores an advantage. That's it. You use a fancy it gets bumped up to a point. Good modifier. Offense doesn't need that kind of modifier simply because it already scores a full point. You want more? Toss in combinations or something to score more points.

The feint system proposed basically allows for scoring with offense three different ways. One way is enough. The feint is a second level modifier. It's not meant to improve your scoring, it's meant to *lessen* your chance of being scored upon. You've got a modifier that goes each way. One makes your move better, one makes your opponent's move worse. Balance. Is there any move or modifier in any matrix that can guarantee the player using it won't be scored upon? Nope. You don't think that's power? From a duelist's standpoint that's a miracle move.

As for what I was thinking, if you want the feint to be less "cheesy" make it successful on offense instead of defense. The breakdown now is like so:

Feint Jab/Dodge = Adv Jab
Feint Jab/Fancy Dodge = Adv Dodge
Feint Leg Block/Fancy Dodge = Adv Leg Block

Feinting offense beats regular defense, feinting defense beats fancy defense. I'm thinking it should be more along the lines of something like this:

Feint Jab/Fancy Dodge = Adv Jab
Feint Jab/Dodge = Adv Jab
Feint Leg Block/Fancy Dodge = Adv Dodge

The whole idea of the system is to force someone to use a regular offensive move in conjunction with the feint to get their advantage. From a realistic standpoint it makes more sense. Defense is a reaction to offense. You feint an attack to force someone to go defensive, then you capitalize. Feinting defense never made sense to me.

As far as the current system goes, I know most people don't understand feints fully. They should ask me. I think the problem is that everyone is trying to break it down from a rules standpoint. I learned feints from a strategic standpoint by way of dueling. It's ten times easier that way.

[Spiffy McBang]

Attack works = scores a point.

Feinted attack works = scores an adv. because of the feint.

Therefore, this idea for feints is as such:

If your move would have scored a point, the feint pulls it back to an adv.

If your move would have been scored upon, the feint knocks your opponent's point down to an adv.

Strategy: Use a feint if you think you've got the right move, but you're not sure, and you don't want to risk losing a point. No more Percies, no more adv. stealing and trying to feint a defense for no other reason than you think your opponent will fancy a defense. There's a reason to use them against someone who is out of mods or didn't have any to start with (if you're into that kind of thing). And it's simple.

Harris, brudda, I see what you're getting at, but that's no less complicated than the current system, and it would require a bunch of people who may or may not understand the way it is now to learn a new ruleset for feints. I dunno if it's worth it to change anything if that's going to be the case.

[Kaja Adair]

I can't believe I let myself be dragged into this, but here goes...

I had an interesting conversation with Jason around the feints system... here's what came out of it. Executive Summary here, and the details below. New stuff is in bold.

Executive Summary:

Defensive Moves: Armblock, Legblock, Dodge, Duck, Leap, Flip
Offensive Moves: Hook, Jab, Chop, Spinkick, Snapkick, Jumpkick, Uppercut, Leg Sweep

1. Feinted Defense/Feinted Defense = null round. (same as today)
2. Feinted Defense/Non-Feinted Defense = null round. (same as today)
3. Feinted Defense/Fancy Defense = advantage feinter. (same as today)
4. Fancy Defense/Fancy Defense = advantage both. (same as today)
5. Non-Feinted Defense/Non-Feinted Defense = null round.* (same as today)
6. Feinted Offense/Feinted Offense = null round. (same as today)
7. Feinted Offense/Non-Feinted Offense = point non-feinter.
8. Feinted Offense/Fancy Offense = point non-feinter.**
9. Fancy Offense/Fancy Offense = advantage both. (same as today)
10. Non-Feinted Offense/Non-Feinted Offense = point both. (same as today)
11. Feinted Defense/Non-Feinted Offense = point non-feinter.
12. Non-Feinted Defense/Non-Feinted Offense= advantage defender. (same as today)
13. Feinted Offense/ Non-Feinted Defense = advantage feinter.
14. Feinted Offense/Feinted Defense = null round. (same as today)

*There is an exception for flips here. Flips, like stop hits, exist on the cusp of defensive and offensive moves, so there are special rules. Flip/dodge, duck or, leap: feinted flip = advantage feinter. Feinted dodge, duck, or leap = null round. Flip/armblock: if either is feinted = null round.

**I personally believe that a fancy offense is a waste of time and a detriment to lower-ranking fighters. If I ruled the world, this combo would be an advantage to the feinter, but for consistency’s sake, I’ve considered a fancy offense as the same as a regular offense.

NOTE: To really make things interesting, a feinted move should be used like a disengage… if I feint a jab in Round One, I should be able to fire out the real jab in Round Two.

Details and Rationale:

I personally like the idea of feints... it's what makes Fists different from Swords, and adds a new dimension to the way you think about the game.

However, my biggest problem with feints as they are now (and some of the move combinations) in Fists is that it's not intuitive-- some of the ways that the combinations are scored wouldn't make sense in a realistic situation, and hence, aren't particularly easy for people to understand or master.

I see a feint as a fakeout, honestly... a move that one does to elicit a particular response from an opponent for the purpose of gaining an advantageous position or point from which to strike, or for psychological intimidation. As a result, it does not make sense to me to fake a defense.

What do I do, fake an armblock in the hopes that you throw a jab at me?

Do I see you throwing a jab, and then fake my armblock, hoping that you pull the jab back?

Neither of these make sense to me. In either situation, by malice or just inertia, the jab connects because the defense isn't really there. If I am a rational, experienced fighter, who knows that an armblock will beat a jab for an advantage everytime, I will never hesitate to throw up a true armblock when I see a jab coming. I expect that my opponent is also rational and experienced, and will not willingly throw a jab into an armblock, either real or faked.

Translating this into the nature of our game, I believe it's the same. If I'm fighting someone, I'm trying to predict what move they will choose, and act accordingly. If I think that my opponent is going to jab out, it would be stupid of me to willingly do something that will allow that jab to connect. (Now I realize that a dunce move like that can be useful for strategy purposes, but that’s outside of scope. )

Either way, a faked defense against an offensive move, in my mind, should always result in a point for the offensive move. A faked defense against a non-faked defense results in no points, and two faked defense moves get no points. Two non-faked defense moves, as usual, results in no points.

The only exception is for a flip. Like a stop hit in DoS, a flip exists on the cusp of offense/defense moves. A flip versus a defensive move should be considered offensive; versus an offensive move, should be considered defense. Given this: for flip/dodge, flip/duck, flip/leap, the flip is the offensive move to be defended against. If the fake is on the flip, advantage goes to the flip. If the fake is on the dodge, duck or leap, no points.

Flip/armblocks are unique… if the flip is faked, no points. If the armblock is faked, no points. This combination depends upon the existence of both moves to create a point.

For offensive moves, the original thoughts apply. A faked offensive move against a non-faked offensive move should result in a point for the offensive move. A faked offense against a defense results in an advantage for the faker. Two faked offensive moves results in no points, and two non-faked offensive moves result in a point per person.

So, given this, what’s the point of using a feint?

1. Use a feint when you think that your opponent will defend, but you’re not sure.
2. Use it to create a stalemate round, or to slow down momentum.

To really jazz things up, however, I would recommend that a feinted move be treated like a disengage in Swords--- if I feint a jab in Round One, I should be able to unleash a real jab in Round Two.

How does this relate to fancies?

Not much different from the current system, although I think that the idea of a fancy offense is stupid as hell. What are you trying to do, hit them harder than they’re already hit? And you get rewarded with an advantage even if you don’t hit? Doesn’t seem fair at all.

Well, that’s my $0.02. Questions and comments are welcome.

Jami

[Elijah]

I tried to read through this whole thread and I got a headache. I love the whole concept of DoF, but I find it frustrating to play in a given match half the time. I am not much into DoM because I think its too weighted towards higher ranks. DoF I don't think is that bad in that regard. I've never earned rank in either DoF or DoM because I never dueled enough in a given cycle to earn a rank to earn a special. What stopped me from dueling DoF was the whole you have to score 2 advantages in a row to be credited a point or get nothing at all.

Its hard enough in a matrix based game to guess right even for one move half the time, but to have to do it twice in a row to even get any credit at all for the first right guess makes it frustrating and easy to want to give up when you have no specials to help you out to make up those chances to gain a full point.

I may be wrong, but its seems a lot easier to get full points in DoF at higher ranks than it is at lower ranks. Can someone clarify something for me? If you have fancies/fients and you are successful using them with a move you get the credit without having to do two successful moves in a row correct? But if you don't have fancies/fients then you have to get the two successful moves in a row to get any point credit at all correct?

[Jake]

A successful Fancy Defense is worth a full point. Just like in DoS. A successful Offense, just like in DoS, is worth a full point. A successful non-Fancy defense is considered worth an Adv, but is not worth a point unless two are strung together. (Which is where DoF is different than DoS.)

So if you successfully Dodged an attack, and then successfully ArmBlocked an attack, that would be a conversion into a point. If you successfully Dodged, and then were unsuccessful in defense in the following round, the Adv from the Dodge is lost.

Feints are a whole different matter.

[Elijah]

Thanks Jake for the clarifcation. Maybe if I ever actually earned rank in DoF I would be able to contribute something intelligent to this discussion. Perhaps I will try again.