Regarding Rules on Keeper Titles

[PrlUnicorn]

Given the recent debacle over the validity of Elijah's challenge to Lem for Old Market in DoS and Lem's recent post regarding neophytes not being able to use the focus granted by their presence of their mentor in DoM until it is in the standings, I want to ask about the following in the DoM rules:

Whenever there is a new Keeper, it will be official with the next standings. In the case of a defeated Keeper, they may not fight as a Keeper any longer, and the new Keeper may not fight as a Keeper until the new standings are posted. The new or defending Keeper may also optionally have a 30-day grace period during which no challenge may be rendered against them.

Does this or does this not mean that one is not officially a Keeper until it's in the standings? If by the letter of the rules, one is not officially a Keeper until standings are posted, then they cannot be challenged until that time either. That would mean no challenge could be issued to one who isn't officially a title holder, grace waived or not.

Any thoughts?

Edited to add the following:
http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... 476#154476

Just like with keepers, it's not official until its on the standings.

[Lem DeAngelo]

They are officially a Keeper upon defeating the previous Keeper.

The standings are used to track WoL and modifiers and spells. Callers and Duelers can easily find rank, titles, advanced spells, # of foci modifiers in 1 place on the standings. But the title itself transfers with the date of challenge.

The just like with keepers comment was in regard to EF. Not the title of Keeper.

[PrlUnicorn]

They are officially a Keeper upon defeating the previous Keeper.

The standings are used to track WoL and modifiers and spells. Callers and Duelers can easily find rank, titles, advanced spells, # of foci modifiers in 1 place on the standings. But the title itself transfers with the date of challenge.

The just like with keepers comment was in regard to EF. Not the title of Keeper.

That's not what the rules say nor what you posted seven days before Claire issued the challenge that you validated. Which is it, please? And can we get the rules updated to reflect what it actually is? Thanks.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Will do tonight. Please don't forget that each sport's rules have been written and re-written by several different people over the years. I'm telling you what has been the standard for the last several years.

[PrlUnicorn]

Will do tonight. Please don't forget that each sport's rules have been written and re-written by several different people over the years. I'm telling you what has been the standard for the last several years.

My point here is because of changes and rewrites over the years that weren't always posted in the official rules, it causes confusion that can be avoided. Some discussions were even held IC if I recall, which as a matter of course is unwise, since varying characters even those belonging to the same player produce varying results.

You are in charge and it is your call, but I find that that standings are the easiest way to track who is at what rank or holding what title. Otherwise, you open the door to those that have gained the appropriate amount of wins over losses to gain a rank issuing a challenge that wouldn't be legal, but making this change of doesn't need to be on the standings opens the door to precedents.

[Rachael Blackthorne]

Respectfully, I have to disagree, Lem.

What was quoted in the initial post in this thread regarding Keepers is what has been held as the standard and enforced when necessary ever since I started dueling magic a few years ago.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Respectfully, I have to disagree, Lem.

What was quoted in the initial post in this thread regarding Keepers is what has been held as the standard and enforced when necessary ever since I started dueling magic a few years ago.

The histories reflect the change in keepers, and those dates use the challenge dates. The standings track spells, foci, and WoL. Honestly, the Standings are a blend of OOC/ IC if you think about it. Foci and Fancies are not IC.

ETA I just looked back over about 5 years worth of histories. The 8 I looked at used the duel date, not the standings update. Feel free to look over more to see if there are discrepancies, but when I joined the staff I was told we use the challenge date for the Title change and the Standings for the EF change. That's what we've done for the last year and half and will continue to do for the foreseeable future.

[Lem DeAngelo]

My point here is because of changes and rewrites over the years that weren't always posted in the official rules, it causes confusion that can be avoided. Some discussions were even held IC if I recall, which as a matter of course is unwise, since varying characters even those belonging to the same player produce varying results.

Agree. I think we've avoided that the last 2 years. Rule Changes and Clarifications have been OOC.

I find that that standings are the easiest way to track who is at what rank or holding what title. Otherwise, you open the door to those that have gained the appropriate amount of wins over losses to gain a rank issuing a challenge that wouldn't be legal, but making this change of doesn't need to be on the standings opens the door to precedents.

I think I can alleviate your concern there. Please check #1 on the Rules of Rank Page . I just revised it to be: "Is listed on the DoM standings with the rank of Enchanter or above." It previously said "Is ranked Enchanter or Above. "

We also have a rule that they must be an active member of the duel of magic for at least 2 weeks, so they'd have to be on the standings to be active. No one rolls off the standings unless they are inactive (haven't dueled) in 6 months.

As for your original query about the Keeper title, how about:

"Whenever there is a new Keeper, it will be official upon the conclusion of the challenge and shall be made public notice on the public forums. In the case of a defeated Keeper, they may not utilize Elemental Fury as a Keeper any longer, and the new Keeper may not utilize Elemental Fury as a Keeper until the new standings are posted. The new or defending Keeper may also optionally have a 30-day grace period during which no challenge may be rendered against them. The grace period begins the day after the challenge is completed."

[PrlUnicorn]

"Whenever there is a new Keeper, it will be official upon the conclusion of the challenge and shall be made public notice on the public forums. In the case of a defeated Keeper, they may not utilize Elemental Fury as a Keeper any longer, and the new Keeper may not utilize Elemental Fury as a Keeper until the new standings are posted. The new or defending Keeper may also optionally have a 30-day grace period during which no challenge may be rendered against them. The grace period begins the day after the challenge is completed."

I think a failsafe regarding the EF should be included in case a newly installed Keeper's challenge somehow takes place before the standings are posted. Otherwise, I like it.

[Goldglo]

We also have a rule that they must be an active member of the duel of magic for at least 2 weeks, so they'd have to be on the standings to be active.

Just to clarify, yes, a dueler has to be on the standings in order to be active, but because a dueler is on the standings does not mean they are active.

Example: If a new character, during their first week of DoM, goes 2-0 and pops onto the Standings as Enchanter, they are not "active" even though they are on the standings.

In most cases, yes, standings presence = activity where challenges are concerned, but it's not an automatic.

--Matt

[Joku Shoyia]

Regardless of the sport involved I think whatever standard is implemented should be made throughout all D of sports.

I don't mind be used as an example because quite frankly I am the example to go by in figuring stuff out. I come from a time where nothing is official till the Standings come out and until the standings come out you are what you are till the date/time stamp of the next official posted standings. Even though I have had some negative activity in OOC message boards about the message board situation it is good to clarify this situation.

Here's my perspective for what it's worth:

If official status is determined by the date/time stamp of whichever Duel of sports standings are posted on a given day then I think that should mean a blanket everything isn't official until the standings are posted no matter what happens in real time during the week until the standings are posted regardless of what is posted to the message boards or stated in live RP chat room.

The only other option I believe is one of two things. I got this idea from something King's player posted about in reference to challenging Kal. I challenged with 2 KoR WL Monday morning because I saw the DoS Standings posted for the new week already. Back in the day usually the new DoS standings weren't posted till Tuesday or Wednesday. King's post implied she expected a new standings to be posted for DoS on Wednesday even thoug Monday there was an updated DoS standings for the previous week already. Since Hydra gets daily updates perhaps a mechanism could be worked out to make all the Duel of Sports standings a daily update in the way Hydra updates daily.

I only mention this because I think even though the big tournament events draw people I think retention could be made for more frequent updates to ranks then once a week. or all sports on the same day of the week, but I think atleast twice a week is a reasonable upgrade for retaining people who are used to "leveling up" instantly on other online gameing options.

[Goldglo]

Since Hydra gets daily updates perhaps a mechanism could be worked out to make all the Duel of Sports standings a daily update in the way Hydra updates daily.

Currently, the Standings are (by and large) a manual process. Until the standings are automated and even possible real-time accurate, we're reliant upon individuals (3 of them) to update the Standings. Speaking for DoF, the standings are entirely manual - everything is done totally by hand. Taking the individuals who already sacrifice enough time out of their weeks to get the standings updated once to and asking them update to more often is, I think, totally unfair to those 3 people and beyond the scope of the responsibility.

Believe me, I would love automation and if more frequent updates were possible, we'd do them. Several people are working on partial automation/ways to make standings updates easier. We're not quite there yet. The Standings Keepers (who are also callers and in one case also a Duel Coordinator), in my opinion, should not have anything more asked of them with the process as it stands today. It's really tough enough as it is.

--Matt

[Lem DeAngelo]

Since Hydra gets daily updates perhaps a mechanism could be worked out to make all the Duel of Sports standings a daily update in the way Hydra updates daily.

DoM standings are also done 100% by hand. Automation is much needed, but I would still suggest that the standings update weekly rather than daily. The DoM week opens on Sunday night and closes on Friday. If a mage is at 15 WoL on Sunday and loses 1 duel that night they would drop rank with a daily update. With a weekly standings update they still have 2 more nights (Tuesday and Friday) to get their WoL back up to 15 WoL and retain mage status. Daily leveling up would also come with daily leveling down.

[Jake]

The DoM week opens on Sunday night and closes on Friday. If a mage is at 15 WoL on Sunday and loses 1 duel that night they would drop rank with a daily update. With a weekly standings update they still have 2 more nights (Tuesday and Friday) to get their WoL back up to 15 WoL and retain mage status. Daily leveling up would also come with daily leveling down.

For this reason, weekly updates still seems like the way to go.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Just to clarify...

The Hydra updates are all made manually, either by myself or Kalamere. Just a matter of taking the 10 minutes to transcribe things over. Updating the entire week runs about 15 to 30 minutes.