Who owns __?

[Kairee]

I never really left. I stopped playing Kairee as I felt that transition to Panther would be smoother. I had been so involved in the RDI 9? 10? years at that point and had "run things for 6? 7?, I was concerned that people would still come to me instead of Panther or try to end-run Panther by circling back to me the way kids do with their parents.

Since Kairee had good IC reasons for "dwelling in the Nexus", it made sense just not to play her. I was involved behind the scenes by supporting what we wanted to do with the FFGF with the AOL management team and by providing Panther with solicited and unsolicited advice.

I never had the same type of relationship with Sam or Etrigan nor do i think they would've welcome it. Too bad because based on what i saw and heard, they could've used my help.

I did try to work with Thorn but he would not listen. He wasn't a player, he really didn't "get it" and he had no incentive. He was a "crony" appointment and the only FFGF Supervisor that was paid by AOL as a consultant to run the area. I never made a dime on it and I poured heart and soul and all my creative effort for years into it.

But as I said, I didn't leave. I spent my time in the SEB. I kept who I was a secret but I can tell you now, I play ThaneR

The history of the SEB...

Thane was one of the very first Sci Fi characters in the RDI on a regular basis. I was trying to promote Sci Fi involvement in the forum and since i was pushing (even before we created the FFGF and I became supervisor) the Nexial crossroads of Time and Space concept.

The two genres didn't coexist well in one room, so I had Kai build a simple spaceport. It was meant to be like a out of the way little airport with maintenance hangers and a greasy spoon bar/diner. The thought was that "spacers" and the sci-fi types get lost and end up here. They can have their high tech enclave and yet go see the freaks in the RDI in the city of Rhy'din.

I did have Kai visit the SEB during my tenure to check on the hosts and to visit with the SF characters. I did this because Kai keeps track of her investments and she has a fondness for a certain type of technical man. From an OOC perspective, it was to reinforce that the SEB was part of the FFGF and the FFGF supervisor had dominion over the area.

Same reasons Kai visited the duels, though i regret not visiting DoF and DoM as frequently as I should've. DoS has always been a personal favorite of mine... probably because i was much more hands on and involved in the rule evolution and the shaping of the sport. That and Gondar was her man, she always watched him Duel. The only time she wasn't there when he was dueling was when I was offline or hosting.

I certainly never thought that what I built or guided development of would still be around so many years later. I remember telling my husband when i resigned that it was a shame that such a great idea and such a wonderfully creative thing won't last.

I can't begin to explain how very proud and how emotionally touched i am that it has survived the trials and tribulations. ....that it inspired such devotion from so many people. I know I didn't build it alone and that it wasn't just my creative effort but I still have the pride of a mother.

Had I known it was going to last this long, I certainly would've documented my role for posterity and to secure my fame. :: I'd would've made myself get over my modesty and leave behind the fear of being seen as an egotist.

I am over that now. I put a lot of effort into the FFGF environs and I am proud of my contribution and i will not turn my back on recognition. (Even if some people don’t think I deserve ir, hate me still or think I suck...)

[Jake]

I did try to work with Thorn but he would not listen. He wasn't a player, he really didn't "get it" and he had no incentive. He was a "crony" appointment and the only FFGF Supervisor that was paid by AOL as a consultant to run the area. I never made a dime on it and I poured heart and soul and all my creative effort for years into it.

Just FYI, for those that weren't around then. She's NOT referring to Tareth.

[Elijah]

Having been a somewhat regular for the past 14+ years of the FFGF and it's spawn I remember it mostly in the same sense of Kairee and Panther's recent explanations as to how I saw it played IC and understood OOC.

In terms of modern adaptation of how things are managed OOC in the Duel Forum of the FFGF's eventual spawn, and how that applies in our IC environment I think it would be fair to say that the individual duel sport coordinator's have "ownership" of the venues their individual sport occupies.

Whatever happens I hope it is something that would involve a sense of tradition in passing "ownership" on IC and insuring that this is a question easily answered by the average character who duels.

[Kairee]

Oddly enough, Kairee never claimed any ownership of the duels. She created them IC as a public work.. out of her fondness for the swaggering swordsmen, arrogant arcanists, and Pretty? Prancing Puglists.

I don't recall her ever taking a percentage of the gold the duels brought in unlike the RDI and SEB.

She does, however, want a proper place in the Duel's histories and be reconginzed as a Grand Dame of the games....and of course, proper respect for Gondar.

[Tareth Thorn]

Since it came up recently I thought I'd share a bit more on the behind-the-scenes process here as far as the OOC "ownership" of the forums.

Not sure how many realize this but the way the TOS was set up on AOL, by using the forums and chat rooms AOL provided the content became property of AOL. The details behind this concept changed several times over the years, but the gist of it was that AOL officially owned the rights to the RDI, DF, and SEB.

4-ish years ago AOL decided to stop supporting these games, as I'm sure many of y'all remember. When I decided to remove the DF from AOL I worked very hard with Sue to make sure that we retained legal rights to the site and that AOL would have no control. What I ended up with is an official statement from AOL that the RDI, SEB and DF were released from AOL ownership and given to the communities that supported them.

What this meant in a legal sense is that the games, as they existed as of Jan 12, 2004, became community property. As such, in perpetuity they cannot be trademarked, copyrighted, or owned by any one entity without express written permission of every member that ever contributed content; essentially never.

Now, Panther can own Dragonsmark and the content on his site, and Amal can own the content on RoH (though I dont' think either really set it up legally and the things I set up for RoH passed to Michelle), but as for the settings, concepts, and history, nobody can own, trademark, or copyright it legally. Things that have come into being *after* these forums have been established as entities can further be owned, but before then forget it.

What this means is that RoH is free to do whatever they want with their game, DM can do whatever they want with their game, and if you don't like it, you can feel free to take the game and start your own site, nobody can stop you as long as you aren't taking things that were invented by those sites.

As far as personal writing and contributions, that's dictated by the site owners. If you want your writing on a public forum to be legally protected by copyright, you have to register each piece you want protected with the Library of Congress. In order for you to do this you have to pull it from any place it's currently published not owned by you until the application process has been approved, then get permission of the publisher to have it made public under their means while not of their ownership. When I set up RoH I made it perfectly clear that anyone was free to retain ownership of their own writing, effectively cutting out half the process of copyrighting any work herein. But I no longer own this site, I don't know if Amal has made such a public statement, and I don't know exactly how Panth feels on the subject with DM.

On the original site I had all this written up on a copyright notice, but I think that got lost in the transition to the new setup.

[Kairee]

Thank you for the post and explanation.

I had a vague memory that AOL released ownership claims to the RDI, SEB, and the Duels but had no proof of it.

I never created anything for the FFGF that wasn't meant to be for "the community" of players. All I seek OOC is a proper place in the history.

I certainly never begrudge anyone the right to interpret things as they see fit but to me, the other RDI's out there that Kairee isn't actively involved in, are "alternate realities" (as I've explained on DM boards) and for me and for Kairee, the only real Reality is the Rhy'din Kairee calls home.

The concept of the Nexus and how I've explained the Multiverse for years is broad enough and flexible enough to accommodate anyone's unique vision should they choose to "play within the Rhy'din Reality" (any version of it)

[Random McChanse]

Since it came up recently I thought I'd share a bit more on the behind-the-scenes process here as far as the OOC "ownership" of the forums.

Not sure how many realize this but the way the TOS was set up on AOL, by using the forums and chat rooms AOL provided the content became property of AOL. The details behind this concept changed several times over the years, but the gist of it was that AOL officially owned the rights to the RDI, DF, and SEB.

4-ish years ago AOL decided to stop supporting these games, as I'm sure many of y'all remember. When I decided to remove the DF from AOL I worked very hard with Sue to make sure that we retained legal rights to the site and that AOL would have no control. What I ended up with is an official statement from AOL that the RDI, SEB and DF were released from AOL ownership and given to the communities that supported them.

What this meant in a legal sense is that the games, as they existed as of Jan 12, 2004, became community property. As such, in perpetuity they cannot be trademarked, copyrighted, or owned by any one entity without express written permission of every member that ever contributed content; essentially never.

Now, Panther can own Dragonsmark and the content on his site, and Amal can own the content on RoH (though I dont' think either really set it up legally and the things I set up for RoH passed to Michelle), but as for the settings, concepts, and history, nobody can own, trademark, or copyright it legally. Things that have come into being *after* these forums have been established as entities can further be owned, but before then forget it.

What this means is that RoH is free to do whatever they want with their game, DM can do whatever they want with their game, and if you don't like it, you can feel free to take the game and start your own site, nobody can stop you as long as you aren't taking things that were invented by those sites.

As far as personal writing and contributions, that's dictated by the site owners. If you want your writing on a public forum to be legally protected by copyright, you have to register each piece you want protected with the Library of Congress. In order for you to do this you have to pull it from any place it's currently published not owned by you until the application process has been approved, then get permission of the publisher to have it made public under their means while not of their ownership. When I set up RoH I made it perfectly clear that anyone was free to retain ownership of their own writing, effectively cutting out half the process of copyrighting any work herein. But I no longer own this site, I don't know if Amal has made such a public statement, and I don't know exactly how Panth feels on the subject with DM.

On the original site I had all this written up on a copyright notice, but I think that got lost in the transition to the new setup.

First, does this mean that the games and the matrices themselves are public domain, like chess or go? That's certainly not what I've been told, but that's what you seem to mean by "take the game and start your own site".

Secondly, in US intellectual property law, copyright is established once you write it down; all official copyright registration with the government does is let you demand more for violations in the courts. At least, that's how I've understood it, but I can recheck my sources if need be.

[Tareth Thorn]

#1- As far as DoF and DoM matricies and rules go, yep, public domain because of the AOL transfer of ownership. DoS though, that matrix pre-dates even AOL, but I'd pretty much include it under community property law since at this point it'd be nigh impossible to claim, let alone establish hard proof, you invented the game.

#2- Copyright *is* established as soon as you write it down, but proving *when* you wrote it down is a subjective matter, in addition to declaring whether your intent is to share it as free-publishing property or claim ownership rights solely. That is where registering a work with the LoC comes in, it creates a recorded date and intent of ownership. Until that document is generated, any arguments as to the nature and age of the work are nearly worthless in a matter of protecting your rights in court. as they become anecdotal. As well, such a document protects publishers' rights to remove the work(s) from their profiles before getting in trouble for displaying content they shouldn't. Even further, the publisher's rules and guidelines affect the ownership of a published work. They *could* clearly state that by using the service you contribute your works to the ownership of the site, like AOL did, but I don't think anyone liked that about AOL and we weren't about to continue that sort of legacy here. The very fact that both sites claim copyright as publishers, yet don't necessarily outline their use of it in the forum guidelines, would necessitate a declaration of ownership on either part for a real court battle where it's a matter of the first to say "this is mine" wins.

Wow, that rambled. I'll shut up now.

[G]

There are a couple websites out there that use the RoH matrix for swords already. RoH just happens, in my opinion, to be the best use of the three matrices.

So, in closing, the RoH isnt the only DoS style of fighting on the web although we are the only one retaining a lot of the signature settings, history, environments from AOL. Well, us and the RDI over on Dragons Mark, where they mention the duels and those settings there.

[Panther]

I wonder at what point could one copyright something derived from what was once on AOL?

For example.. we use the descriptions, with only minor changes, as they appeared last on AOL for the Marketplace, Realm of RhyDin, and the Great Hall.

At what point, if it's edited, would the description of say the Marketplace, cease to be public domain, and become "mine"?

Also, I found a bunch of stuff on an old cd of mine that I archived some of my early FFGF stuff.

When I wrote the description of the RDI for DM, I was basing it on something I had that I thought was originally done by RDI Thumpr... but on this disk I found his original description... and it's not really anything like mine.

So.... yes, my description is based on the RDI from AOL... in concept... my description it not like the one used on there, it's not like Thumpr's (which was never used on AOL as anything but a user submitted description)... I mean.. other than the fact that they all have a bar, a porch, stairs, a hearth... they aren't really the same "place". So... in theory... do I own the copyright on the description we have posted on DM at this time?